Jess (00:16)
Hi everybody, welcome to the Dig In Podcast. I am stoked today to go really deep in the design world with an expert that I've known for a number of years. Today I'm joined by Denise Siebert. She's design officer at 3M, a brand that touches every one of us in our households. Denise, I'm so thrilled to have you here. Thanks for taking time.

Denise (00:36)
Jess, thanks so much for inviting me. I'm excited.

Jess (00:39)
Yeah, well, I like to start with an impromptu question to get us going. And you haven't seen this question from me. Okay. So what class in high school do you wish you could go back and take again?

Denise (00:43)
Okay, no.

Good question.

I don't think I appreciated enough some of the sciences.

one of the reasons I ended up in the career I'm in was in earth science. We learned about Frank Lloyd Wright and his buildings that were built in order to avoid earthquakes.

Jess (01:05)
Mm-hmm.

Denise (01:05)
And so

that was one of the reasons I was like, I want to be an architect. But I don't think at the time I really valued the sciences as much as I should have. I think those would be biology. All of those classes would

more appreciated now.

Jess (01:18)
Yeah, that's a good one. That's definitely a good application in your daily life today. So let's get to that actually. We'd love for you to tell us a little bit about your background and where you are currently.

Denise (01:24)
That's right.

Yeah, sounds good. So my degree is in industrial design. I

that is the

career for me because one of the first things you learn when you were in industrial design is to think about the end user. Everything is about the end user. How do they, how are they reacting? Why are they doing these workarounds? And so problem solving is a big part of what I love doing. I love doing it in my personal life and in my

and so it just everything kind of tends to fall around that whole idea of how what's the problem and how can we solve

and really trying to put yourself in somebody else's

I started out my career at Procter & Gamble.

was at Procter & Gamble for 18

had amazing experiences. I loved the company. It was

terrific because you could kind of have many careers within.

So I was in five different business units while I was there.

then I went on to be the vice president of design at the Kellogg company.

So interesting to get to work on iconic brands like Eggo and

K

that are just truly like you mentioned about 3M in everybody's

that was exciting. And now I work in the 3M company. I lead a team of designers that work on the safety and industrial

It's very problem solving specific. We do firefighter gear. We help firefighters be

the scene. We have communication devices that help connect them with the captain on the

construction worker protection

for people who repair your cars, the paint guns and those types of things. really cool, really truly industrial design and end

work. So that's just been

career for sure.

Jess (03:12)
Definitely.

Well, it feels like it's come full circle when you think about that from an industrial tech

So

Denise (03:18)
Yeah.

Jess (03:19)
pretty cool. And we have quite a few P &G alum because there's so many new talented

out there. But

love the phrase, you had multiple careers at P &G. That's actually really

Okay, well, let's dig in. So our listeners crave inspiration from other leaders. And one of the ways that I think it's easiest

Denise (03:32)
Okay.

Jess (03:38)
inspire is by telling a story. And when we were talking, I mean, there's so many design initiatives and campaigns you've been a part of, but one that just has got to be at the top of your resume was when you were at P &G and you worked on the Like a Girl campaign.

this is one of those campaigns that like I go back and watch

for pure joy. mean, it's like one of those things that

such

love for you to take us back to that time and talk about what inspired that idea. Like, where did it originate?

Denise (04:08)
Yeah, so

my favorite

of

working on the FEM care

was just the amount of insights that we were

able

glean

And so from a quantitative standpoint, we started to understand that girls

were quitting sports around 12, 13. And so

told us a fact, but it didn't tell us why. And so

team got a chance to do a lot of insight work and really spend time with girls to understand that. And that's where this insight came of just this confidence loss that they have when they go through adolescence and kind of the bullying that tends to happen.

those kinds of aspects were having them not feel confident enough to stay in sports and not feel like they can actually compete. so the nice thing about the Always Like a Girl campaign is because it

specific for the Super Bowl that year, it went fast. think sometimes when companies overthink these things and they go

might have not gone as well as it did, but I think

because it was a really fast moving project. And really, it was hard to deny when we would see some of the creative that would come from Leo Burnett. It was hard to deny how strong it was. Like you mentioned, it was so emotional. And so it was just one of those things where we were trying to unlock that inside of how do you help change just a small aspect of a girl's life.

Jess (05:27)
Yeah.

Denise (05:41)
to make it more positive. And that's where this whole idea of turning a negative of like a girl into a positive came

just exploded from there.

Jess (05:51)
So for anyone that hasn't seen the Like a Girl campaign, Denise, would you please just describe it in the best way that you can without the creative visuals that you had?

Denise (06:00)
Yes,

essentially, there's a narrative behind camera. There's one actor at a time on camera. The actors range in age and gender. And they start out by showing

probably 18 plus

individuals.

the narrator just asked them to do several things. And actually this was specifically, was the actors did not know exactly what was going to be happening. So this was actually a genuine way that they approached it. And so they would ask the actor to run like a girl and the 18 plus would usually run in a like weak way or a more feminine or clumsy way maybe you could even say.

they would ask the actor to punch like a girl and the actor would punch really weakly or femininely. And then they go through several iterations of this and

in front of the camera. And then toward the end, they start to show especially one little girl, but several little girls, and they would ask,

her to do the same thing. And they would say, okay, could you run like a girl? And she would run like she was, you know, like in a marathon or in a sprint. And then they would say, punch like a girl. And she would punch air really, really hard and aggressively. And so you start to notice and unlock as you're watching this that the younger girl just thinks like a girl is her, is everyone, is...

still strong and that's when you start to understand

we are conditioned through, especially through our adolescence to think that girl is a negative. And so then it kind of ends with asking those actors that are 18 plus the same question of why do you think you ran like that? And they all were like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know why.

you know, why do I think that a girl runs weekly or slowly or clumsily? And so it's just one of those moments where you, it all kind of comes together at the end and you realize what we've been conditioned to think.

you start to realize that there's something that happens. When they're younger, before adolescence, they see girl as a compliment. They see girl

positive, and then it just gets eroded over time. And so that's when at the end, they kind of wrap it all up by

like a girl trying to transform it into a

Jess (08:32)
Yeah, and absolutely embodies that notion of how things just change. There's a tipping point as you grow older where that light switch turns off, I guess I'd say. And that's why when you're describing it, I'm actually getting kind of choked up just hearing about it, even not seeing it, but hearing you work on

Denise (08:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jess (08:53)
that there's quantitative learnings that say, gosh, girls are starting to quit sports at the age of 12.

then there's qualitative to start to unpack the why. How did you actually translate that research into what became some of the most compelling creative, like certainly of that decade? How do you go from that insight to that execution?

Denise (09:09)
Yeah.

Yeah,

it's such a good question. I will say it was a really great team of people between the creative at Leo Burnett, Edgar Sandoval was our marketing lead and he was just super with trying to just take the team forward. But I think it was just really collaborative, very diverse points of view, very diverse points of thinking. had an international team on it. so...

I don't know if there's something I can pinpoint about why exactly it was unlocked. I do think the timing thing was important. We didn't have time to overthink it. We didn't have time to, gosh, is this too big of a statement for this brand and question? So I do think

was certainly helpful. I think the creatives, we just let the creatives

And so

don't know if there was anything more.

a prescription or anything more than that.

Jess (10:07)
Yeah. Well, it's so interesting to have time crunch be actually working in your favor because obviously it's often the opposite of that. I'm just wondering if there were any other elements of either how you went from insight to that execution or maybe something that you guys did on the creative front to make sure that the imagery and the tone was really hitting. But what gave you such conviction in such a short amount of time that this was the right move

the brand and for the

Denise (10:32)
Yeah.

Jess (10:34)
Bowl? I mean,

This is not a small stage, like, okay.

Denise (10:35)
Yes. Yeah.

I don't think this is secret how P &G works, but they know that they're going to do maybe one or two ads, brands for the Super Bowl, but they don't know which one. And so it's almost like an internal competition.

I think that helps for sure, where you want yours to be the most

one that's seen. that was helpful for sure.

I think some of it ended up being the way that even the shoot was set up, that the actors were actually part of this

knew from qualitatives already that it was gonna go that direction or likely would, but I think the...

actual creative shoot helped as well.

Jess (11:17)
Yeah. Well, I love that embodiment because you know, have hopefully, know, gosh, by now, Denise, I have such an appreciation for the design and creative discipline and someone that's an insights professional. I've always really tried to promote a research perspective that is appropriately respectful of the art that goes into this design and then also provides the objective consumer reaction so that we can ensure that your creative is really hitting with consumers. Right. And so

Denise (11:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes, yeah.

Jess (11:45)
I just, love this story as a personification of

when did you know this campaign was a success? Did you have a specific milestone?

Denise (11:53)
Yeah, one of the ways that we were just, I think, blown away was that year there was a little league playoff game, which little league, although sounds small, it's a huge,

playoff game. And there was a commentator who was, and this was a,

a boys little leagues.

And the commentator was talking about one of the people and said that he threw like a girl. And immediately the other commentators with him said, no, no, no, you can't say that anymore. That's not how you say it. That's actually a compliment. And then went on to talk about the ad and what

learned from watching the ad. And I

when we got the snippet of that and realized, my gosh, we just are became part of the vernacular. And so I think that's when,

I think everybody had goosebumps. We all realized this was really impactful.

Jess (12:48)
That's a cultural shift that you are a part of. What an

Denise (12:50)
Yeah,

Jess (12:52)
milestone. I am so glad you could share that. my gosh. I

Denise (12:54)
right. Absolutely.

Jess (12:56)
that question of each of our guests and I have to say I don't know that anyone's going to top that because that is really, really meaningful. my gosh. Well, what would you say is your biggest takeaway from that experience?

Denise (13:01)
yeah. Yes.

I really do think it was the highlight of my career to be a part of something that huge. That was a big feeling that came out of it. I really think that.

it just reinforces over and over again that

the insights are critical, the research is critical and learning what the quantitative data is trying to tell us, but find out qualitatively why. Why are those decisions happening? So I think that's a huge takeaway as well.

Jess (13:39)
Yeah. Well, something I value in you as a design leader is you understand the value of insights and I understand the value of design. So that's why we make good buddies. So let's turn to you as a thought leader, certainly in the industry and also in your organization. And I know that you're quite passionate about the role of diversity in the design industry.

Denise (13:45)
Yes. Absolutely.

Jess (13:59)
fact, you're chair of Women's Leadership Forum at 3M, which is a pretty important role. What makes you so passionate about that and what are some of the things that you're doing to further diversity in the industry?

Denise (14:05)
Thank you.

Yeah, it all started when I was in college and industrial design is, it still is today, a very male

And so I think there were three females and 50 men in my graduating class of industrial

think from then I also

when I was at Procter & Gamble, I got a chance to see here, Gina Davis speak. She came and spoke to us and she talked about this research project that she did where she was trying to prove to the movie studios that they were not representing women equally with men. And so she would actually, all they did, it's called the Gina Davis Research Institute and all they did was measure speaking time.

number of characters on

additional cast members. And they found that even in a Disney movie, 80 % of the crowd behind the character was men. And instead of just, why wouldn't you just do a balance of

and women? And so,

she was able to take that data and bring it then to the movie industry and say, you're actually not representing equally. And then she did this for more diverse underrepresented groups. But it just, all of that just really impacted me. And I have been digging into this ever since, because again, the problem solver mode comes in. So I spent some time at Procter & Gamble on a few different initiatives.

there. And then when I came to 3M, one of my, some of my best buddies are in the D &I space. So I am always like, whatever you need, I'll create whatever design you need so that I can continue to be a part of their work. so through that, that's when I became chair of Women's Leadership Forum. That's actually ending at the end of this year, which I'm very sad about, but it just,

I, it feels good to know that I can at least highlight unconscious biases, continue to educate. That's really important for me. The aspect on the design industry that you mentioned is, I think a lot of people need to see themselves in others. And so when you don't see other industrial designers that are female or

you don't.

you don't go into that field. And so what I've tried to do is speak to schools. I like to talk to junior highs and high school about because a lot of people, even their parents will tell them that design is not a place where you can make money. The creative

isn't where you should, where you can make money. Go into STEM, be a doctor, be a lawyer.

people will start to show their creative skills in seventh grade and start to go kind of down that route.

there's definitely not as much bringing them along on that journey as there is on the STEM side. So I know some people try to alter it to STEAM and add the word, add the A in for art, but it's just not enough, I don't think. I think there needs to be more ways that you bring people along the journey of what does a artistic...

field look like? What does a career in art look like? And how do you encourage more diversity, more diverse people to go into other fields? I like to talk to them about, you can make money being creative. You can get a paycheck, I

Jess (17:36)
Yeah.

Denise (17:39)
And usually a seventh grader likes to hear that.

Jess (17:42)
Yes, yeah, that's when that starts to appeal, huh? Well, so first of all, bravo to you for spearheading that and being a part of that. think that it's funny when I think about when I watched the Mad Men series years ago, you know, when like they just figured out, maybe we should include Peggy in this conversation because we don't put on lipstick. so maybe we should. It was just one of those hilarious moments, but not hilarious. It's hilarious now.

Denise (17:44)
Yes.

I know what you mean, yes.

Jess (18:09)
it still happens where it's, and forget about it it's a group of men or if it's a group of one ethnicity or race, like if you're not incorporating the perspectives of the people you are designing for, then you are taking tremendous leaps of judgment in terms of what's going to appeal. And I think that design is a place where it's a deeply personal reaction that people have to

Denise (18:22)
Yeah.

Yes, 100%.

Yeah.

Jess (18:36)
the advertisements they see, the package designs that they interact with. And so if you don't sufficiently accommodate all of that perspective, you are going to get it wrong. You just, will. And so it's been really heartening to see a lot of the strategists and the design and the branding experts become more diverse, but we have such a long way to go. But we've come a long way since bad men. Can we at least agree on that?

Denise (18:45)
Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

That is 100 % true. to your point, I just think the organization should, the makeup of the organization should appear more like its marketplace. And so it should be made up more like what your marketplace looks like as well.

Jess (19:20)
Yeah. And that marketplace is only diversifying with every moment. So we better get to it. Yep. Absolutely. So what's your hot take on the future of the design industry?

Denise (19:24)
Yes, absolutely.

Hot take. I think we're going to keep changing. I think we need to embrace AI. There's some people that are embracing it, some that are not. I think that it's coming or it's here. And so it's going to change the face of creative. But I think we need to remember it's another tool in the toolbox. And so how do we utilize it instead of pushing back against it?

I just think we're, it's, our industry is going to keep evolving just like it has in the past. And probably it'll evolve even faster than it has in the past as well.

Jess (20:09)
Yeah. And I know that some very smart people will say things like,

is not going to take your job. Your job's going to be taken by someone who knows how to use AI really well. Do you think that's true for design just as much as other fields?

Denise (20:18)
Yes.

I do.

Yeah, I do. I think the quicker we embrace that and start utilizing it, it's very similar. mean, if you go

when

was in the 90s, I was coming into the design industry. People before that did type setting manually. Everything was manual. I grew up on using Macs and using computers. And I remember the...

that was gonna be the downfall because we didn't have the craft skills that the previous generation did. But we evolved and we changed and we still have jobs and we still have really important jobs. And so I think it's very, very similar parallel. It's just gonna happen faster.

Jess (21:06)
Amen.

going to go to the final dig. This is all about you as an individual Denise. So it's just a fun little section we'll do. What's the last product or service that you bought on impulse?

Denise (21:12)
Okay.

on impulse. So I think Instagram knows me so well. I do way too much impulse shopping based on what Instagram's algorithm tells me. my most recent was a pair of Converse that were a collaboration with this fashion designer. They have wedge heels. They're really fuzzy on the outside and I love them so much. So and they were very expensive.

Jess (21:22)
Thank

Now.

then you went to Wedge Heal, and then you went to Fuzzy, and I was very sold. So, let's see how you got into that. So what's a category or brand that you could rationalize any price point for? You just have to have it in your life.

Denise (21:47)
They're amazing,

Since I'm 50 now, think a big one is anything healthcare related. So I'm like focused on being my healthiest self. I spend way too much for my gym membership and my personal trainer. There's no end to

Jess (22:17)
I don't think you can spend too much on a gym membership and a personal trainer. That's really important. Brands have distinct personalities as we know. What's a brand that you would date and a brand that you would marry? And they don't always have to be the same brand.

Denise (22:21)
That's right. I agree.

Yeah, that's interesting. Well, I would want something like a little bit more reliable, but then something fun and something cute. So I would I would do my Mini Cooper. I love Mini Coopers. I drive Mini Cooper. So would say that'd be my date and Mary probably.

Jess (22:51)
Okay, it's good when it's been won. That's awesome.

Well, what keeps you inspired at work? You've had such a storied career and been part of so many important executions that went to market. And what keeps you inspired in this discipline and in this industry?

Denise (23:08)
Yeah, 100 % every single job. It's the creative team that I work with. it's been like that. In fact, I still keep in touch with almost everybody that I've worked with in the past. I love working with creative individuals. And so right now I'm super inspired by the team that I work with. are and it's amazing to watch this next generation come in and

They are so far along in their skills. so it's so inspiring to me on a regular basis. That's my go-to.

Jess (23:43)
Yeah.

Well, they're lucky to have you as well. You're an inspiring human. So thank you so much for sharing your perspective and your wisdom and just kind of cheering up my day. So I really appreciate you.

Denise (23:47)
Thank you.

good, yeah.

Thank you, Jess, and thanks for the invite.