Jess (00:16)
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Dig In podcast. Today, I am very excited by our guest. We are joined by Elizabeth Oates, previously VP, Consumer Insights and Guest Services at Ulta Beauty, and now the author of More Than Just Interesting, How to Build an Insights Function for Impact. Elizabeth, I've been really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you. Thank you for being here.

Elizabeth Oates (00:37)
Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to the discussion as well.

Jess (00:39)
Okay we're gonna get going with an impromptu question here elizabeth you haven't heard this one for me if you could be any superhero which one would you be.

Elizabeth Oates (00:49)
Ooh, you know, I would be Elastigirl. You know, she's the mom from The Incredibles. I mean, she's not like specifically, you know, perfect or young or anything like that. But I'm and I'm not really excited about like her stretchiness. But I like who she is, right? She is someone who like fights for what she believes in. And she's tough and she's resilient. And she does it all being this total kick ass mom.

Jess (01:15)
sounds like a good one to be. I like that one.

Jess (01:17)
So let's start with you telling us a little bit about your background and what you're doing now.

Elizabeth Oates (01:22)
Sure. Well, thank you for having me again. I'm just looking forward to this conversation. And this is something I'm really passionate about, so I'd love to talk about it. getting here to this point, I've spent about the last 20 years driving consumer centricity. And I have been lucky enough to do that across several industries, including CPG, financial services, and retail. And through that time, I found a passion for pushing businesses forward

leading and leading in to what consumers want and need.

It's what drives the businesses for the short and the long term. So that's how I got here, you know, 20 years and insights. But right now I'm investing my time in promoting and sharing my passion with others. I've just written a book, as you mentioned, thank you, which I'm sure we'll talk a lot about. I'm promoting that book. I'm guest lecturing for university classes. I am conducting training workshops for insights professionals.

and I'm consulting with businesses on how to drive consumer centricity in their context. So if I can admit it, I'm also having a lot of fun.

Jess (02:28)
Yeah, gosh, fair enough. You've earned it. That's fantastic. And one of the things I love about your background is that it does have that diversity across different industries that I personally loved seeing as examples in the book because it's just great personification of how these sort of insights philosophies can transcend across different industries. So we're going to get into that. We're going to dig in now. Our listeners do really crave inspiration from other leaders. And I think one of the best ways to inspire is to tell a story.

And I'm sure that many of our listeners have had aspirations at some point of writing a book. I think it's something we all kind of think maybe I'll do that someday, but it's such an accomplishment to actually get it out in the world. So for this book, more than just interesting how to build an insights function for impact, it was published just in July this year. What was the inspiration behind actually sitting down and writing a book?

Elizabeth Oates (03:18)
Well, Jess, I do a lot of speaking at conferences and within organizations. And in doing so, I have been lucky enough to find opportunities to inspire audiences to think towards the future. And one of my foundational topics as a presenter has been never be interesting. And if you can believe it, people actually showed up to a presentation called that. But even more so, it's like, it's really about

that it became well received, the content and the ideas did. And the essential idea and inspiration in that content was for insights professionals that we need to be more than just interesting. We need to be impactful. We are here not as someone to put a book or a binder on a shelf, but as a way to drive a business forward into the future for the long term.

All of that culminated on this really positive reception for the topic. And so I started writing things down and outlining content in other shareable ways. And that was really the origin of what kind of brought me to this book writing process.

Jess (04:24)
And would you say it was a traditional path to how a book is traditionally written or did you have sort of different approach to it.

Elizabeth Oates (04:33)
Well, okay, here's the real and true answer. I don't know because this is the first time I've ever done it, right? So it's the only path I've ever taken. But for me, was truly a really, it started out as I outlined the content on an airplane, right? I was actually, okay, I'll have to admit it on a girl's trip in January of 2020. And I drafted the first outline on the plane to Mexico. So then I wrote from there the first chapter.

Jess (04:37)
Yeah, the first time.

Elizabeth Oates (05:02)
sitting by the pool, which, okay, that sounds pretty traditional to me, right? That's what everyone does it, right? So yeah, I guess traditional, no, but in all seriousness, once I had that first outline and the first chapter, I started to get really excited about it. And I started filling in content for the whole outline, you but what I realized was that it was all my own voice. And so I phoned some friends who happened to be industry experts and asked for their thoughts.

Jess (05:06)
Yeah.

Elizabeth Oates (05:32)
And through the course of what turned out to be some really fun interviews, I was able to add additional voices and expertise and ideas to the outline and feeling in that outline. So the content resonated with each of them and it really solidified my story from there. So then I found a few more friends and to those who had either written books or were currently writing them. And they put me in contact with editors and publishers.

and self-publishing options. And I sorted through all of the options and found a publisher that would work best for me. So I contacted them. And Paramount Market Publishing was interested, right? And they asked me how long it would take for me to fill out the entire book and write the full manuscript. And I was like, ooh, I'm working full-time, I'm a mom, probably a really long time, like, you 12 months.

Jess (06:27)
Yeah.

Elizabeth Oates (06:27)
That was

four years ago. So it did actually take me a long time, even longer than I thought. you know, going back to that starting point, I mentioned that I started writing in January of 2020. Well, we all know what happened shortly after that. So my writing was derailed rather quickly. And while I was working full time and teaching at home full time and, you know, just trying to manage all of that.

decided that I needed a goal. Like if this book was really going to be a thing, I needed to set myself a goal. And that was at that point to write one paragraph a week. And some weeks, I even managed that goal of one one per week. you know, as like started getting back into normalcy just a bit, I found myself with a few more moments. And one moment was that weekly, my youngest daughter was taking a ballet class.

Jess (07:08)
Yeah.

Elizabeth Oates (07:24)
And so for 40 minutes every week, I could sit outside of her class where no one needed to talk to me and I could just write. So my one paragraph per week became actually doable. And I did it. Yes. Sitting outside of ballet class, one paragraph at a time. I also wrote when we were driving in the car on road trips, my partner was driving and in quiet moments, like on airplanes, family vacations, work trips. let me tell you, the ballet didn't stick Jess

other passions, luckily, but what did stick was the content. And so I'm really glad that I stuck with it and that I did it.

Jess (07:54)
you

Elizabeth Oates (08:05)
this year, I got back to Paramount Market Publishing and looked at the content. And we signed a deal and the book published in July. So here we are.

Jess (08:15)
That's an incredible journey and wow what persistence and to not maybe get you know demotivated from perhaps you had a week where you couldn't contribute that paragraph but really sticking with it so and you you did talk about some of the barriers but did you have to pivot at any point in a really significant way?

Elizabeth Oates (08:34)
Yeah, you for me, the biggest barrier was time. And it's hard to keep momentum when you're disrupted so frequently. And so there were many times where I had to kind of go back and reread just to ensure the content still flowed. If you're writing in such little chunks, it could be easy to veer off course. I also, you know, I mentioned that I had some asked some industry experts for input and I did also get some feedback.

on the content. you know, they say feedback is a gift, right? It is it truly is. And in some cases, that feedback made me rethink my approach to my content. So I did have some barriers where I had to do some rewriting, but it was because it was challenging the content to be the best that it could. So in know, rewriting, I wanted to ensure that my ideas were clear, and that they were I also like concise.

because no one has time to read a whole book often as well. you know feedback I think can sometimes feel like a teardown, but looking back it truly you know it did help me build something much bigger and better and that's a hard process to go through when you're doing something just as a passion project over the course of four years.

Jess (09:56)
my gosh, absolutely. And feedback is a gift, but man, it's a lot to manage and navigate, right? So yeah, and we're going to get into some of your philosophies and share from the book in a moment, but I would love to just know how will you measure

Elizabeth Oates (10:02)
Absolutely.

Jess (10:12)
of the book? do you have a milestone that maybe you've already reached or that you're shooting for?

Elizabeth Oates (10:17)
Well, you know, the book itself isn't long. It's just over 100 pages, to be honest. But it's it's chock full of content because I wanted this book to be the one that people use, the one that they carry around in their backpacks and their briefcases. You know, I talk about not wanting to have research that's like in a report that's in a pretty binder on a shelf. And the same thing was, you know, success for me is having a book that's also

not just a pretty book on a hardcover on a shelf. So I wanted it to be the one that's written in and earmarked and carried with for the reader. That to me is success. You know, and there's a, it's a long way of saying what success is. But part of it also is having an impact, a positive impact on insights professionals. You know, so if I can help someone succeed at their role, at their job and in their organization, I'm going to count that as success as well.

You know, I'm really pleased to say that I've actually gotten a few calls and notes that folks have bought and used the book. So that's awesome. And even a few calls where they said they bought it for someone else. They were going to keep their own copy and then get the book for someone else. I was like, my goodness, my heart was exploding with joy. But when you hear that someone doing that, it really makes you think, you know, this is really cool and that's really meaningful content. So it made my heart sing.

Jess (11:41)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, as it should. And I really love in the opening of the book, you talk about this is great for people that are new in the insights profession. It's great for folks that have been doing this for years to kind of revisit some of those lessons learned. So I found that to be super relevant for me personally. So I'd love to turn to some of the concepts and philosophies in the book.

One thing that you already mentioned is this idea of consumer centricity. What is your unique take on consumer centricity and why is it so important?

Elizabeth Oates (12:16)
I'm so glad you asked. really do. I have a definition of consumer centricity that I live and breathe by. But really, I think that at its core, consumer centricity is defined by two things. One is how an organization makes decisions with consumers in mind. And two, how an organization brings its products and services and messages to life for consumers. Now, each of those

Jess (12:17)
I'm

Elizabeth Oates (12:46)
is important, right? And we often go right to that second one because, you know, how we bring our products and services and messages to life offers like really tangible evidence that we're doing something in line with consumer wants and needs. Now, don't get me wrong, that is super critical, right? And for example, when I was working in retail,

I knew that if I didn't provide the goods or services that my customers wanted, there would be a line of like a dozen retailers who were willing to give it a shot. consumers have choices. So winning those choices requires showing up in ways that are really meaningful and obvious to them. So, and not but, and that first one is also important, making decisions with consumers in mind.

because not all business decisions are visible for a customer or a potential customer. But those decisions will eventually impact those customers. So even when we're behind closed doors, we're in a conference room, we have to make choices with consumers in mind. It really is the foundation that sets up our ability to show up in a meaningful way.

Jess (14:05)
So you've worked across so many brands in your career. Do you have an example of where you've really set the stage for what consumer centricity is foundationally for say a brand team?

Elizabeth Oates (14:15)
Sure. And let me tell you, Jess, can I go with a time where I got it wrong? Because I think we all learn from those experiences as well. I won't say back how many years ago, but a few years ago, I was working with the Progresso brand team at General Mills and the

Jess (14:19)
Please, those are the best.

Elizabeth Oates (14:33)
come up with a really incredible frozen soup where you kind of like you put it in a pan and it melts and it makes this like homemade flavor so good soup.

And so we thought like this product is amazing because it was. But when we put it into test, we found out that we didn't quite get it right. So let me tell you what we got wrong. So we made this frozen soup and we put it in really large size packages in a club store. And the chicken noodle flavor was the hero SKU And so we put all of that into the store and I stood outside the freezer section.

and watched consumers either pick it up and put it in their cart, but mostly pick it up and put it back. And then I would ask them why, right? And it turns out that they love the idea. And even when we did product testing, the flavor was amazing. The product was great. But what we got wrong was nobody wants that much frozen soup. Like a club size double version was just too much.

And we also learned that, the chicken niddle in a can was sort of good enough. So if they're going to go to the expense and space of frozen, they wanted something they couldn't make at home or couldn't get well out of a can. So we got the size wrong. We got the location wrong. We got the flavor wrong, even though it was a great product and learned coming back and saying, wait to the team, there's so much that's right, but also there's reasons that this isn't going to be a success.

helps the business because it actually ended up being a non-investment in something that would have been a failure. So it really was consumer centricity, even though consumers didn't know who were making choices based on their behalves. It was the right thing for the company as well.

Jess (16:19)
Yeah, yeah. I love that example. And it's so funny because as soon as I asked that question, I thought, I hope she talks about the frozen soup because there's been so many, you know, client projects I've consulted on where it's like, the product that was made is a great product. And it's just, you need to sometimes find the right time and place and position and all the things that need to work out. But sometimes those things are not aligned. So that's a great example.

Elizabeth Oates (16:34)
Yeah.

Absolutely.

Jess (16:44)
Another thing you talk about a lot in the book, which I find really compelling are some of the core skills that are important for the insights function. And I have a favorite, but I'll let you kind of give maybe a couple of your favorite. You know, what are some of those skills that you think are just paramount as our industry evolves?

Elizabeth Oates (17:01)
You got it. This is a passion point for me too. So I'm really curious as to which of their those is your favorite, but you're right. Nine. I came up with nine and I built those nine over a decade ago. And so, and I believe that they are still as relevant as ever. And given it isn't a four hour podcast, I'll be briefed, but I'm just highlight a

And I'm going to highlight the development of partnerships and proactive planning. And so the idea of the development of partnerships reflects that in order to be impactful, we as insights professionals need to have productive working relationships with others around us.

Insights don't happen in a vacuum and they don't become impactful in a vacuum, right? Unless you're an organization of one, you need to have a partnership with someone who's going to take action on those insights. So you have to develop true and I keep using the word partnerships because you have to think about it as a two-way street, understanding what their needs are and listening and talking and dialoguing, right? It's partnership. And as part of that, understanding what your partners are facing.

you know, how they think about their business and what will enable them to make choices that you know are right for customers. So it's about a trusted relationship. You know, that's the true partnership. And it doesn't mean that you have to tell them what they want to hear. But it does mean building trust so that when you have to deliver unwanted or bad news, your partners will lean in and listen.

and take the right action. So building partnerships will take you further as an insights professional. And importantly, it'll make your business more successful. So there's one. And the second, think, is the partner to the partner, if I can say that. It's really about proactive planning. So one of the hardest things that we as insights professionals face is the need to move at the speed of the business.

not the speed of the insights, right? We no longer have the luxury of saying, Hey, partner, thanks. That's a great question. You know, I'm going to take that, do some thinking, and I'm going to get back to you in like 12 to 14 weeks. Okay, cool. No, if you say that today, you'll get laughed out of her room, right? So beyond finding like speedier methodologies, we have to think ahead. And if you've built a partnership, and you know,

what your partners are facing, you can then employ the skill of proactive planning because you can plan ahead for what the business will need. You can plan for decision-making cycles. You can plan in a way that you can do quality research and deliver insights at the right time. know, it really, I kind of laugh here and you'll probably laugh at this example too, but it fascinated me early in my retail career. When we were scrambling,

for insights for holiday. Like, didn't we realize that December 25th happens on December 25th, like every year? So as my teams, you we got better at this proactive planning skill, that surprise was removed and it was replaced with impact.

Jess (20:22)
Yeah. And another personification of that idea that you gave in the book was related to your time at Kohl's when there was sort of this monster learning goal. And so you and your team developed a quite robust, you know, research plan to address it. And as it sounds like as stellar as those insights were, they weren't like delivered at the time that the business can really even use them. And I thought that was such a great and probably very painful at the time.

But such an important example of how if the insights you're delivering are not aligned with some of those planning or executional factors, then unfortunately it is not going to be leveraged in the way you want.

Elizabeth Oates (21:02)
Absolutely. And it's like, unfortunately, lesson that I had to learn. So I want someone else not to have to learn it in the hard way. You know, but you're right, because as we talk about things like partnerships and proactive planning, you know, of the nine core skills I've built for insights teams, only two are about actually doing insights, right? Because the other seven are about how do you take what you've learned and uncovered and built and communicate to the business in the right way and in the right time with the right context.

Jess (21:07)
Right. Yeah.

Elizabeth Oates (21:32)
so that you can be impactful. Like that's the real runway to impact.

Jess (21:37)
Yeah, definitely. Well, do you want to know my favorite because I appreciated all the skills. Okay. So the one that really resonated with me is about understanding the business context because I think it's something that can often be sort of under, I think it's often underrepresented and how some insights professionals might tackle a problem because they dive so deep into what's the research objective. How am I going to answer that with flawless research? And they forget about the context that's going on in that client's environment. So

Elizabeth Oates (21:40)
Yes, I do, please.

Jess (22:06)
How are decisions made? Who has the power to actually make those decisions and how are different functions involved? What is the planning cycle? We've been talking a lot about planning, et cetera. If you don't understand that, then you can deliver an insight that just can't be acted upon or you deliver it almost in a currency that the stakeholder doesn't understand. And so I thought that one was so impactful, not just for how you deliver insights, but also how you should be designing and planning.

those insights, right? It's just to understand that business context is absolutely critical today in a way that I don't think it was maybe even 15 years ago. It just seems like now we're expected as insights professionals to be so cross disciplinarian. it's a, it's a must.

Elizabeth Oates (22:34)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. I love that one. Thank you for highlighting that one too, because you're right. We have to deliver insights in a way that the business can take action on. The risk of getting it wrong is really harmful because then we'll have wasted time resources, we'll have very simple people resources, dollar resources, and it could actually erode the partnerships that we were building. But if you get it right, it actually also pushes all of those things forward.

Jess (23:14)
Yeah, definitely. Okay, well you gave a sneak peek of those core skills and hopefully folks will read the book to learn the rest. to your point about wanting to have dog-eared covers, that's where my highlights come in. So just know that it really is well worth the read. So what's your hot take on the future of the insights industry? And I realize that that is like a Holy smokes type of question, but I can't wait to hear your response to it.

Elizabeth Oates (23:26)
love it.

Thank you.

Okay, so for me, the role of the insights is only going to get more important, like period. And I can expand on that just a little bit. But I think our role and the need for investing in insights and understanding consumers will only get important for let's say at least three reasons. One is that AI is here, right? And everybody take a breath. I don't believe that AI is going to take our jobs. No, it's going to be a tool for us to help do our jobs better. So

as we work through using Gen. AI in new ways, it will be the job of insights professionals to ensure that humans remain at the center of decisions. So we have to continue to play that role, and even more so now than ever before. The second reason I think that we're gonna have to really lean in to insights is that competition is fierce.

right? And it's only getting more so right? We can no longer just make you know, a better, faster, cheaper widget, or whatever we're making, we really have to understand that the job that that widget or thing or service, you know, does for our consumers. So we therefore have to understand our consumers. And so hey, that's us people, that's our job. And so that makes our job, you know, even more important. And then the third Jess is that

I believe that the future won't look like the past. And we need to understand how consumers are looking forward in order to successfully navigate the future. And so that also is going to require consumer insights. So I guess all in like if I'm placing bets, I am betting on the need for insights professionals to continually develop themselves to continually have impact on their businesses.

And I'm also betting on the need for organizations to invest in quality insights.

Jess (25:38)
Yep. Well, sign me up for that feature because I think that's a great optimistic way to look at it and we'll accept those challenges, right? So I love that.

So we're going to move to the final dig. This is all about you just as a person, as a consumer. feel free to, most of our guests don't have a work version of themselves and a personal version of themselves. We tend to see them all, but you just do you. It's all good. What's the last product or service that you bought on impulse?

Elizabeth Oates (25:57)
True. Okay.

the last thing I bought at impulse was a wreath for my front door. So if you want to get me to buy something, just add glitter. And for real, like, it'll be a shiny object that I just can't resist. So yes, the wreath got me.

Jess (26:19)
So glitter in our household, my husband just cannot handle it. So I'm on the opposite side of that, unfortunately, but I will live my care stay through your glitter purchases. So that's fantastic. What's a category or a brand that you could rationalize any price point for? You just have to have it in your life.

Elizabeth Oates (26:23)
no!

This one's easy for me, Jess, running shoes. So I will cross, I am, I'll cross about 1400 miles again this year. So good shoes are worth every penny. Yeah.

Jess (26:39)
That's right, you're a marathoner.

Yes,

I should say so. I love this one for people. Brands have distinct personalities, as we know. So what's a brand that you would date and what's a brand you would marry? And it's okay if those brands are two different brands.

Elizabeth Oates (27:02)
think I would start with who am I gonna date? I'm gonna date the North Face. But back when they were sponsoring Endurance Runs and then the Endurance Series, because I think that that would be a brand that could then push me like over the hump of like, yeah, I'm gonna stop talking about signing up for one of these things, actually go do it. So I think that would be cool. But I think I would marry Lucky Charms.

Jess (27:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Elizabeth Oates (27:27)
And I mean, is there a better way to start your day than having breakfast and thinking about your dreams or like what's at the end of the rainbow? So, you know, I don't even like the marshmallows in lucky terms, but I love like all of the powers and the dreams that represent.

Jess (27:27)
I love that one.

that's fantastic. And yeah, I was going to ask if you're a marshmallow person because it's we have sort of a split vote in the population, right? Those that do and do not partake in the marshmallow. So I'm a marshmallow gal. Yeah.

Elizabeth Oates (27:55)
Yes, my kids do. So they

do. So I can just have like the other pieces and then they get all the marshmallows.

Jess (27:59)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So what keeps you inspired every day, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth Oates (28:05)
You know, I thrive on change. And if there's one thing that we know for certain is that change will always come. So I'm here for the ride.

Jess (28:16)
I love it. Well, that's a perfect way to sum up this conversation and you've got tremendous thinking about change for our industry in your book. I really do hope that you get lots of folks reading it and hopefully engaging you for some of those workshops you talked about as well, because I think that that would just be so beneficial to so many organizations. So thank you for joining us and giving us your inspiration and your wisdom today. It's been a real pleasure.

Elizabeth Oates (28:39)
Thank you for having me.