Jess (00:17)
Hi everybody. Welcome to the Dig In podcast. I am super excited about today's guest. I've been looking forward to this for quite a while. I am joined today by Ron Burrage currently with brand design agency Go Dutch and previously head of design at PepsiCo, Hershey, and Procter & Gamble. So Ron, thank you so much for being here.

Ron Burrage (00:35)
Thanks, thanks for having me, hi.

Jess (00:37)
So we're going to jump right in with an impromptu question. Okay. Got one coming at you that you don't know. So we're going to see what you say here. What's a book or a movie that had a real impression on your life?

Ron Burrage (00:48)
Wow, impression on my

Cassandra Peterson, Elvira Mistress of the Dark, her biography called Yours Cruelly.

it's top of mind because...

A, my mother's name was Elvira. So I've always had this Elvira connection, like growing up. And I, you know, it's just kind of always attracted to like the spooky Halloween kind of season. It's, it's fall is my favorite time of year. But what I really loved about the book is I, you know, I naturally grew up knowing who Elvira was. I used to watch, you know, the movie Macav, her late night show. And then of course her

Jess (01:03)
Yeah.

Ron Burrage (01:26)
her movie. But what was really amazing is just seeing underneath like who this person was and just so fascinated by her life and you know, really the number of times that just she was going to give up on what it was she was trying to do, which was become an actress. And you know, she had those moments of like, you know, I'm aging out of this. She had casting directors tell her, you know, she was way too old, you know, move on, find something else to do.

Jess (01:44)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Burrage (01:55)
and it was just, you by happenstance that everything kind of fell together and,

you know, naturally the Elvira that we all know today, but the book was, you know, really great. Truly a don't judge the book by its cover, like in so many ways, and also just holding true to your dreams, holding, you know, true to who you are, being grounded as a person. Anyway, truly fascinating story. I highly recommend

Jess (02:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ron Burrage (02:21)
then listening to her and hearing it in her voice, it's like, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. It was great. It was great.

Jess (02:27)
Yeah,

yeah, it's cool when the audio version is done by the biographer, right? It's just it's such a different vibe. So very cool. It gave me something to add to my reading list. So I appreciate that.

Ron Burrage (02:35)
Right. Yes,

do it. Do it. I know most people want me to say, you know, the Bill Gates story or Steve Jobs. They're all great. But this one really stuck with me.

Jess (02:42)
All Yeah.

All right. I love it. I love it. So tell us a little bit about your background and what you're up to now.

Ron Burrage (02:50)
Sure. So I have been in the design industry for 30 years. I have been at some amazing, amazing companies, many of my dream companies that I never thought in a million years I would get a chance to work for designing brands that I never thought I'd have an opportunity to design for. So I started my career working at a small agency. I worked for the Olive Garden as the head of design for their menu division.

ultimate dream. I was hired by Disney to be a designer for their parks and resorts division. Then went to Procter and Gamble where I just had the massive brain explosion of learning how design and consumer insights and finance and all of these things come together, which I don't take for granted at all. I think of my time at P &G almost daily.

I left P &G to go to Hershey. I was the head of design for Hershey, which was so magical. was like Disney and P &G comes together to make chocolate and theme parks. It was such an amazing experience. I can't say enough about that. I'll tell a little story all about Hershey Kisses later. I left Hershey to go to PepsiCo. was the head of beverage design for North America. I to do Super Bowl, amazing stuff.

Jess (03:50)
Yeah.

Ron Burrage (04:09)
I started my own design firm. And then where I am today, I am working for an amazing design agency in Cincinnati, Ohio, called Go Dutch. I actually was one of their very first clients. Pantene was the project I hired them for. And then I literally, every company I talked about between then and now, I brought them to. I was consulting for them and then they offered me a full-time role. it's kind of...

Jess (04:29)
Yeah.

Ron Burrage (04:33)
truly full circle and really thrilled to be there now as a strategist and also working as a producer.

Jess (04:39)
Yeah, well, that's wonderful for it come full circle. And speaking of that circle, we're going to dig into some of your experiences from some of those design environments that you've been a part of. know, Ron, when we talked before, I shared that our listeners really do crave inspiration from other leaders. And one of the best ways I think to inspire is to tell a story. So you are really integral in the resurgence of a very well-loved brand. And that is Hershey's Kisses. And so this is a few years back.

We'd love for you to talk to us about the context of the Hershey brand portfolio at that time. And so how did you know it was time to initiate this resurgence for a brand like Hershey's Kisses?

Ron Burrage (05:18)
Wow. So it's, truly one of my favorite stories to tell. When I started working for the Hershey company, there was so much energy around a lot of new brands and a lot of, you know, the idea of like, what's new, what's on the horizon, what's kind of next. And, you know, the, kids's brand was one that, you know, it was a staple. was, you know, certainly a major part of

brand's story. It was the first kind of love that Milton Hershey brought in the world of chocolate. And internally, Kisses just kind of became like, working on Kisses, or we're redoing Kisses again, and it's another time to do Kisses. And it just kind of was missing some of the love. And so we were working on actually the redesign of

the Hershey company, like doing the redesign of the corporate design system. So everything that's showing up on delivery trucks, on the facilities, on the back of every single package manufactured by the Hershey company. And we had done a massive exploratory around like, okay, what should this icon or this symbol be? And it was actually during a time when a lot of major consumer products companies were rebranding. So we had seen

the rebrand of Kraft and the rebrand of Danone. so Hershey was going through this and was like, well, what is that icon? What is the thing that just means Hershey? And no matter what we presented, and I actually had worked on this project with Go Dutch as well, no matter what we presented, it always came back to the kiss and that little kiss icon. And so it was something

I was super curious about it. I'm like, you know, we, we love this so much and it's in truly in our hearts. Um, but the brands itself just, you know, it, was trucking along. did seasonal things. but like that everyday kind of love and desire was a little bit missing. So had some amazing brand partners. Um, so on the brand management side who are like, you know, Hey, what if we think about this differently? And we started with

And for me, just, immediately went back to that commercial from like, well, there's so many with kisses. One is the bells,

it's the Christmas season is coming and that's kisses. And the red and green kisses that everybody talks about having like on their table. like, how do we make this, you know, something that people want all year round? And so,

we started a whole seasonal kind of like resurgence around like, hey, what could kisses mean for the holidays? And we had some really amazing partners also in R &D and packaging who were like, hey, we could do some really interesting things now with our foil wrappers, because before it was the foil goes on the kiss and it goes, they weren't like optically registered. But now we were able to actually do something where if you wrapped it just right, you could start to get a shape.

And so we went from, you know, just our silver, red and green kisses to like, hey, we could make that into a Santa hat. And then we like, what else could we do? We could make it into a bunny for Easter. We could make it into a cup of cocoa for winter. We can make it into a Valentine. And so it just kind of like opened our eyes to like, wow, there's so much more we can be doing in season, outside of season every day.

You know, we put this kind of whole world around like, you know, every day deserves a kiss. And so it started to get people internally excited about kisses because we were doing all kinds of cool things. And so much of it was like pure concept, like nothing had even made its way out the door yet. It was just kind of like, hey, what if we did this or what if we did this? like the organization really started to get behind it. And then we started to put things in front of.

Jess (08:53)
Sure.

Ron Burrage (09:09)
consumers and like, hey, what do you think of this and test things?

refreshed the brand logo. Everybody talks about like there's this little kiss hidden in the kisses

logo, the letter forms. And we had moved away from that for a while because we were putting giant photos of kisses on packs. So we're like, let's bring that little thing back in. Let's think about that plume, that little piece of paper as like

a way to tell stories. And so we started like customizing those.

But one of the things that really kind of threw me as like the moment that I was like, there's something so magical here was a concept that had a bride in her beautiful wedding

a box of kisses behind her back. Like it was almost like her bouquet.

I'm like, my

Jess (09:55)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Burrage (09:56)
kisses could be part of like, it could be a part of such a special thing like a wedding, but it could just also make somebody's day just better by handing you, how could you be mad at somebody if they hand you a silver wrapped kiss? And so it was something that I took a lot of passion with,

it was something that was so much fun that like our agency partners, so certainly Go Dutch you I worked on the redesign of the brand. We did concepts and concepts around movie premieres, around partnerships. The first one that I was like so super excited about was a partnership with Elf on the Shelf that Target

picked up. I literally chatted with one of the design leaders who's still at Hershey. Her name is Mary Morett. Shout out to Mary. They just did a Snoopy Peanuts Hershey's Kiss for Valentine's Day. And I was like, my god, is like, like all of these dreams are coming true. It's just one of those things that I think, you know, in my gut, right, it's like, hey, there's something really

Jess (10:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ron Burrage (10:59)
exciting and powerful about this. And I continue to like just show up in meetings like, hey, let's think about it differently. And then my partners in packaging and R &D were like, hey, what if we optically register the kit so we could print something on it? What if we change the plume that goes inside? Then like the whole organization just kind of got excited around something that frankly was under our nose.

And just something that you take for granted every day where it's like, yeah, that's part of our portfolio.

But it

Jess (11:26)
Sure, yeah.

Ron Burrage (11:27)
celebrated. And so much of that was, of course, tied by the love that Milton Hershey had for Hershey, Pennsylvania, and the town, and the transformation. And yeah, it's just I've done some really cool designs, like brand design work in my career. And that is absolutely at the very, very top.

Jess (11:38)
Yeah.

Ron Burrage (11:48)
I'm still very proud of it. And even when I go into retail today, I'm such a dork. I still shop all of my old brands, including Hershey's. And I just see the Kisses brand. I feel like where I left it, it was in such a great place for everybody to keep taking it further. And they do. They keep surprising and delighting me. I have the Peanuts Kisses literally shooting on my counter right now because I'm like, oh, they're so cute.

Jess (11:48)
Sure.

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah,

you're a brand loyalist for sure. Well, there's so much inspiration in that. a couple of things that you said that I just really love is this idea of, what if, you know, and really sort of empowering your teams cross-functionally to explore and experiment and kind of, you know, play with different realities. I think that's so cool. And how powerful when it's a visual manifestation of that and a physical manifestation of that through design. So really, really cool. Now,

Ron Burrage (12:16)
Yeah

Jess (12:40)
You know any sort of revitalization of a brand or refresh you know comes with its challenges did you face any barriers at any point is there some time where you had to pivot or something just was not possible.

Ron Burrage (12:52)
You know, the Kisses journey is, it's an interesting one because it's easy to look back and say, my gosh, like look at every, you know, naturally, even though I was the head of design, right? There are so many agency partners that are executing on behalf of my team, right? So whether the advertising agencies or the in-store agency or promotional agencies or even licensing, you know, it was a lot to change a brand like that because it meant

a lot of change for a lot of people. And so, you know, I think it was really about kind of keeping that, you know, destination in mind and knowing that, hey, I might start with an elf on the shelf today that might turn into something more next year. It could turn into something bigger or more broader. Maybe we move into other seasons. Maybe we become more a part of like the everyday.

But I think, in that particular case, it was really about the patience to know that we'll get there. We might not get there overnight. It might be a road to get there. And particularly when you're thinking about a brand as big as Kisses and the global reach that it has, getting all markets aligned to like, hey, this one crazy idea, this guy won't stop talking about it.

Jess (14:09)
you

Ron Burrage (14:10)
You know, like how do we get there? And so we did, you know, lots of work with consumers in Latin America, because this is a big part of the brand ethos there. You know, to make sure that the things that we were hoping to do weren't going to, you know, negatively affect or impact, you know, their business results. And so slow and steady on that one, for sure. And, you know, fortunately, we didn't have to do

too many course corrections back. We did some really interesting packaging innovation. At the time this was going, we went from, we called them lay down tags. They were essentially a plastic bag printed down at the bottom of the shelf. And one of the things that this refresh allowed us to do was talk to retail partners about the role that Kisses could play in their

category, not just the brand itself. So, know, what were, you know, bags just laying down and laying down on shelves are now and I'm really it's so exciting to go in and see every product is standing up now Hershey's, Reese's, know, Kisses, Rollo, all the brands are in these, we call them stand up couches, but the process to get there. And we did have some missteps from a packaging point of view. The great part about, you know, about

Jess (15:10)
They're all standing up now. Absolutely. Yeah.

Ron Burrage (15:25)
working for the Hershey's company and having retail destinations like Hershey's Chocolate World in Pennsylvania or New York, we got to test out a lot of those prototypes. there was a package, I remember the code name, I don't remember what we actually ended up calling it, but this thing, we all lost a lot of sleep over it. And in the end, we learned and moved on and the stand up pouch came to be.

Jess (15:41)
Yeah

Ron Burrage (15:51)
Certainly, know, lots of fun kind of twists and turns.

It's never the straight road there.

Jess (15:59)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm just kind of reflecting on the importance of getting those local markets to embrace what the strategy that's coming from, you know, the mothership and might have been kind of easy to get folks in Pennsylvania really jazzed because everyone's kind of seeing and hearing and touching those products and part of the journey. making that feel really authentic to the folks globally. That's a really great example of just how much is at stake when you are launching this type of initiative. So.

What would you say, Ron, is your biggest takeaway from the Kisses experience?

Ron Burrage (16:30)
I mean, I think from a kiss's point of view, truly, you know, and I feel this way in life in general, anytime I've like truly gone with my gut and like kind of, hey, I'm feeling something about this, something really great, like to really stick with it and go with it. You know, anytime I feel like, you know, things maybe were forced on or whatever that like maybe took us down a wrong path, I probably knew.

in my gut like, this probably isn't right. But maybe we have to play it out to prove it's not right. So everybody feels, you know, particularly in in mass kind of corporations, you know, everybody, particularly as you think about, you know, subject matter experts, like, clearly, I don't know what it takes to, to figure out, you know, how many kisses need to run down a line in a second to make our

Jess (17:04)
Yeah.

Ron Burrage (17:23)
you know, our shipments go out the door and like understanding like, Hey, by adding that optical eye, right? That's slowing down a process. And so making sure that you're, listening and understanding, and it's not just a, you know, a cry from on top, like you will go and do this, but Hey, how can we work this together? And you know, how do we prototype things?

but so much of it was about the relationships and the trust that we built among all of the different functional areas. Design could have a vision, a creative vision, but it literally took everybody to make that happen from finance to legal to R &D to packaging to the sales team to every one of our customer teams.

is doing their job effectively, they're almost

you're kind of like a center spoke, right? Like you have to learn to kind of talk all the languages, you know, cause it's not just about, I just made something really beautiful. It's I made something beautiful that, you know, consumers are going to love that is not going to, you know, hurt our bottom line. That's not going to slow down production. That's

Jess (18:25)
Sure.

Ron Burrage (18:33)
going to make our retail teams excited and happy. there's so much more to just what ends up being an artifact in somebody's hand.

Jess (18:41)
Yeah, those are really great takeaways and great lessons. And let's kind of dig into one of those because, you know, you're certainly a thought leader in the industry. And one of the things you just touched on, I think, is one of your more passionate points of view. And that is that, you know, the design discipline is not always seen as a strategic capability in organizations. And so I'd love to hear how you've kind of approached that, especially during your time at Hershey. It sounds like that was a really meaningful time where you

You really forwarded the design discipline. So how do you think about that?

Ron Burrage (19:11)
Yeah, it's a great question. We could probably spend a couple hours on that. I feel like certainly in my career and even where I am today, there's a pendulum of design being the most important thing and CEOs saying, will lead by design. You will make design the center of the organization. And then you have the pendulum swinging the other side where it's like,

Jess (19:17)
haha

Ron Burrage (19:41)
Design is a tactical deliverable. is like the end state before a product goes out. Personally, I prefer to work in a world somewhere closer to this side of the pendulum versus the tactical side. But even within major organizations, different business units may have a different role. I don't want to say respect, but maybe respect and appreciation of design.

In my time at Procter & Gamble, I started my career in the dish category, Dawn and Cascade. And I will say, and this is years and years and years ago, light years ahead now, of course, but design wasn't at the forefront of that category. And so we had to work a little bit harder to prove that we're listening to the business, we're listening to

business results where we're really partnering strategically to kind of understand, you know, the business. Whereas flipping over to my time on Pantene and on Olay, where, you know, design and beauty kind of go hand in hand, it wasn't as hard of a sell. Now, different sell for sure, but design was a little bit more, you know, accepted or respected in.

kind of like the beauty side of things. Now, if I look at P &G and kind of how Mr. Clean and Swiffer and Tide, they're like design leaders all the way, right? So clearly things have kind of met the bubble, which is awesome. When I think of my time at Hershey, I joined after an amazing design leader went in and I often say, she kind of did the...

the weed whacking for me and really started to help the organization understand what strategic design was. Maybe prior to that, it was a little bit more, hey, the brief is done, the R &D is done, we know this is what the package is, now go hand it to that team to decorate the package. And the foundation that she led and really by example on some key brands in the organization,

really helped people think differently. And I think where the biggest change happens is when you start building design advocates in junior levels in an organization, because they're the ones who ultimately are gonna be the senior levels. I used to say

my brand colleagues at Hershey, like one day you'll be CEO and I'll still be the design leader. And that's all good with me. Like if I do my job, you're gonna get where you wanna go.

Jess (22:10)
Yeah.

Ron Burrage (22:15)
And so it's building, you know, those advocates and those that those pockets of advocates that when an opportunity arises, they think I can't do this job without design. Right. And, you know, that is such an amazing feeling. It's a little daunting to sometimes we design was a very small function, you know, when I compare it to R and D or, or marketing, but having those moments where it's like, Hey, we can't do this without, you know, Ron or somebody on his.

from his team, it just, means so much. But the challenge with that is it takes like perseverance and you just can't give up

I could see where it would be easier to just say, I'm giving up and moving on to somebody who wants me versus let me fight to make this work because when it works, it's truly magic. And so I think that

is a huge part of it. And I had some really amazing examples on my journey. I say this all the time, Claudia Kaczka, who was the head of design at Procter & Gamble early on when design was really just starting to make a name for itself in the business world, really was a major champion and fought so many good fights on behalf of her design leaders.

she gave so many of us the confidence to actually go into an executive boardroom and present and not be intimidated by all the MBAs in the room. So I think there's a little bit of that, like we were crazy enough to think we should be doing it, that kind of like elevated us. So, you know, I learned so much from her. And then I think back to my time at Disney, we had, you know, just such major inspiration

with our, of course, with the IP at Disney. It's very easy to fall in love. But we had creative leaders at the design group who just never let us rest on, you've got this great IP. was, how do you make that IP better? How do you make Mickey relevant? 75 years later, when I was working for Disney, was Mickey's 75th birthday. I actually designed a little logo for it, it was cute.

Jess (24:21)
Wow.

Ron Burrage (24:23)
But like, how do you make Mickey fresh 75 years later? And, you the reality is like, Mickey Mouse had had any IP outside of the theme parks for many, many years, right? He it's not like Saturday morning cartoons where, you know, you were getting up to watch a Mickey cartoon. So, you know, how do you keep that fresh and and exciting for, you know, new consumers, old consumers, especially if they're not exposed to

to the characters maybe the way that they were.

Jess (24:54)
you can tell this is a topic you're quite passionate about and lots of, you know, illustrations of how that's played out in your career. So no, thank you for that. So what's your hot take on the future of the design industry?

Ron Burrage (25:05)
Wow, think,

know, so of course so much has changed in the industry. mean, I think the industry has been changing since I joined the industry. like thinking back to like days before everybody having access to a computer, right? Where, you know, we were still doing paste up, like, you know, old school with tissue overlays and,

and now of course AI.

I think that, you know, the industry is

is always been changing. And right now we're just at another one of those big influxes. I'm super excited by the power of design and really what design can do for businesses, for people and humans. And I'm an optimist at heart. And so I...

look forward to kind of seeing where this goes. I feel like I've had the privilege of being a manager and a leader to so many people that I look at now. they're in the roles that I hired them. I have people who have been on my team as very junior designers who are now the head of design for major companies. I'm like, wow, that's amazing. That's always been kind of what.

Jess (26:15)
Yeah, such a good feeling.

Ron Burrage (26:18)
excites me about being a design leader and being a design leader who ultimately, I love leading people, I love leading design, I love thinking about things differently. And I continue to be challenged by all of the new technology that comes our way in the industry. And I'm excited to figure out how I make myself stronger, how I make myself more kind of resilient as a creative leader.

but also how I leave the design world better for whoever's coming behind me than I found it for myself.

Jess (26:53)
Yeah,

that's a great spirit to have. love that. Well, we're going to turn to the final dig. This is all about you as a consumer, Ron. So just give us what you got. What's the last product or service you bought on impulse?

Ron Burrage (27:06)
I'm the worst. buy so many things on impulse. Instagram ads really have changed my consumerism. I bought a very funky apparatus to wash my sneakers. It's the coolest thing. like a... So bad I can't name it, but I can describe it. It's basically like a car wash.

Jess (27:11)
Yeah.

Ron Burrage (27:34)
in a duffel bag. you unzip it and inside are all of

Jess (27:36)
Mmm.

you're scrolling and it got you. I get it, impulse drives decisions. What's a product or a category or maybe a brand that you could rationalize any price point for you just have to have in your life?

Ron Burrage (27:42)
Yeah, yeah.

going on a Disney cruise with my niece in a couple of months. So that's one. feel, you know, I joke, like, wow, I could have gone on a nice month long tour of Europe for the price of this cruise, but I'm in, I'm excited. I want to go out, I'm excited for that. The other thing that I am...

Jess (28:05)
It's worth it.

Ron Burrage (28:13)
a huge consumer of is theater and Broadway and any kind of live performance. And so many people argue with me about ticket prices to see a show in New York. And there is nothing that I would rather give my money to see. I love to see live performance. I love to see people living their dreams on stage. I love to see new works. I even love to see like

revivals of things.

Jess (28:39)
Yeah.

Ron Burrage (28:40)
If haven't seen Sunset Boulevard, the new incarnation, it's truly spectacular and amazing. But if somebody came to me to argue a ticket price, I could get their credit card down and have a ticket in their hand. I'm pretty sure I could convince anyone.

Jess (28:42)
You

That's awesome. You just have to have it part of your life. I get it. So brands have distinct personalities as we know. What's a brand that you would date and a brand that you would marry? And they can be different brands. It's up to you.

Ron Burrage (29:01)
Exactly.

There's a brand right now called Vacation, is a beauty brand. They've got all kinds of interesting things from sunscreen to hair mousse to scents and candles. I would date them. They just seem super fun. I love that they're playing up kind of like 80s, 90s nostalgia.

Jess (29:26)
Mm-hmm.

Ron Burrage (29:36)
I hear the Go-Go's playing or Cyndi Lauper when I see their packaging. I think their sense of design, their sense of typography. I also love type. It is kind of my nerdness. I think they're awesome. I would date them because I think probably I would need a little bit of a break from them if we were married. But I love them. I love that brand. I love that brand.

Jess (29:47)
Mm-hmm.

Understood.

Ron Burrage (30:03)
like my relationship with Banana Republic probably is a marriage at this point. We've been together for decades at this point. Free pandemic, I was known for crazy shirts. I literally wore plaid and gingham and everything every day. And then when...

Jess (30:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ron Burrage (30:26)
all started working for home on Zoom, I'm like, I'm gonna find the best black t-shirt in the world. And I literally tried every brand and I fought it. I'm like, it can't be at Banana Republic. I've like literally shopped there my entire life. And sure enough, it's the only shirt I'll wear. So I'll marry Banana Republic.

Jess (30:38)
Thank

Yeah, yeah, I support that. Definitely reliable. Yeah. What keeps you inspired at work, Ron? It feels like there's so many great stories from your experience. So what gets you up every day and enjoying it still?

Ron Burrage (31:01)
I love a challenge. There are so many things that I'm like, I can do that. I can do that quickly. I know how to do that. I've done that a million times. I love when there's something that I'm like, I haven't done that. I did this so many years ago, but either technology is so different or the talent pool is so different. I just get super excited about that. I think in my

role as a producer, that's kind one of the deliverables. Like, okay, what's the newest technology from a photography point of view? How are studios adapting to AI? And I've talked to several photographers who are doing this really amazing mix between CGI, AI, and film.

And when it all comes together, it's like, you mind, like you could have never produced that, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago. So, so that's what excites me. Like, you know, technology, I also love people. So I, I spend a lot of my time, you know, talking to artists, talking to photographers or producers or stylists. And that always excites me. It's, you know.

I just, I'm a people person. I'm really an extrovert if that's not obvious. But I just, yeah, I think that's what excites me. I get excited by relationships.

Jess (32:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, lots there to be excited about. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge and your inspiration today. It's been a real pleasure to talk with you.

Ron Burrage (32:43)
You too, Jess. Thank you.