Jess (00:00)
Welcome everybody to the Dig In Podcast. This is Jess Gaedeke and I am so excited to be joined today by Anna Estlund She's Senior Director of Insights and Strategy at Pernod Ricard I have been really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you, thank you for being here.

Anna Estlund (00:14)
Happy to be here Jess, thanks for having me.

Jess (00:16)
Yeah, well, we're going to get going with an impromptu question. So you haven't seen this one yet, but I really love this question and I can't wait to hear your answer. If you could snap your fingers today and become an expert in anything, what would it be?

Anna Estlund (00:30)
Ooh, I would love to be an expert in multiple languages. So like my own version of Rosetta Stone within myself. I can speak like elementary Spanish and French and like can get around enough to be dangerous, but in nowhere near fluency. So I'm actually an English teacher for adult learners and a lot of them are Spanish speakers.

Jess (00:37)
Mm, yeah.

Anna Estlund (00:57)
So I use my basic Spanish as best as I can, but it would be great to be able to have more of a conversation with my students.

Jess (01:05)
Yeah, for sure. Well, it sounds like you're well on your way. So, you know, just get your own version of your Rosetta Stone. I like that as a life goal. Awesome. Well, tell us a little bit about your background and your role today at Pernaut.

Anna Estlund (01:11)
Hahaha

Yeah, so I'm a leader in strategy, insights and analytics. So I consider myself more of a marketer, more of a generalist than a specialist. I'm more in the insights world now. So as you said, I lead an insights and strategy team at Pernod Ricard. We are a global wine and spirits company. So we are number two globally. We have awesome brands like Jameson, Absolute, Kahlua and Screwball, Mum Champagne. I could go on. We have a big

so I lead a team of about 10 people and

Jess (01:48)
Sure, yeah.

Anna Estlund (01:52)
innovation shopper and then portfolio insights. And I've been with the company for four and a half years before per no, I was at Nestle, General Mills, and then worked in sports for the Minnesota Timberwolves and the Minnesota Twins. And I would say a common thread of my CPG era that I'm in now is working on global businesses.

So I've had an expat role in Switzerland. I've worked for a Latin America regional team. And even though I'm in a US role now, I work with my global counterparts all the time daily on either like big business questions or building new capabilities. So that's been a part of my career that's really energized me, I would say.

Jess (02:34)
Yeah, I love the diversity of that experience. think when we talked, I was like, my gosh, how cool to start in the sports industry and be able to, you know, kind of get that part as part of your experience. And the diversity of what you manage today is one of the things that we'll dig into. So let's go ahead and do that. Let's dig in.

Anna Estlund (02:44)
Ehh

Jess (02:52)
our listeners really do crave inspiration from other leaders. And I think one of the best ways to inspire is to tell a story.

And at Pernaud, you really saw and were part of that era of the explosive growth of the Hart-Seltzer canned cocktail segment. And I think that that's a great example of a fundamental consumer and category shift that I'm sure brought many lessons and many opportunities for the brands that you manage. So what was the category context at the time when that explosive growth really started? What consumer trends were you watching and anticipating at the time?

Anna Estlund (02:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, I thought this would be a fun story because so many of us in marketing are either like experiencing big category shifts or have. So I joined Pernaud in 2020, which was really like you said, the boom of hard seltzers. So think about it. There are kind of like three big macro categories in alcohol. You have beer, you have wine, and you have spirits, which is more of where my company plays.

And so this is the land of giants and big budgets. So think like enormous brands like Budweiser and Jack Daniels, which are not my brands, but right. It's like that level of brands. So one of the most fascinating things I would say coming into the company early on was these are new to world brands. So you had truly and White Claw, especially like exploding onto the scene. And so while there were these like kind of smaller, cooler

offerings in the past, like Smirnoff Ice or this Jack Daniels like Country Coolers or Bacardi Breeze, like all of those existed, but you had these new brands come out with convenience in a can versus a bottle. So first they were delivering on convenience. The second thing I would say is they were doing a better job in what we were watching at the time, right? Everybody in the industry still is on wellness. So these brands and the category really took

lot of cues from one of my old worlds of just sparkling water. Like literally it's in the name seltzer, right? And so it was the codes and cues, so what we call semiotics, of seltzer through and through. So the feeling of belay being more light or refreshing or like natural flavors. So think of like the purity of the white can, the skinny can itself, and like the fruit imagery.

Even if they weren't saying it, they were very much cueing them. The other thing that was going on that I think is fascinating is cultural relevance. Said more humanly, it was on trend. Like my favorite quote from that era that you would hear from consumers is, there ain't no laws when you're drinking claws. Which is about white claws. yeah, I heard it in research like right when I joined, I was like, that's amazing.

Jess (05:43)
didn't hear that one, that's good.

Anna Estlund (05:48)
so you would like, saw young men, especially engaging with this category in a way that was very different than in the past. So like in my college days, you wouldn't see that many guys drinking like smear off ice or Mike's heart lemonade. so there was this whole kind of on-trend thing that was very broadly appealing. The final thing is what I think helped really helped it explode in what we were watching. And I think it's sunk in more for me now is this idea of control.

So in a can, you have more control. You might have multiple cans, a lot of people do, but you have the perception of control, right? Like I have more of a sense of how much alcohol is in there versus a margarita that a bartender might make me or like a big pour of wine. And so that feeling of control matters so much more now because especially for like Gen Z, right? Like if I'm out drinking, I might end up on social media. So it's that kind of like always on

publicity in your own social circle that can happen. So the feeling of control, think, just matters a lot more than it did 20 years ago, right, when these coolers were really popular. So you have all those things coming together of like the convenience and control of beer, the kind of flavorful, fun parts of a cocktail, and then it feels like a healthier choice.

So all of that just in total, think is what now, now what we call ready to drink. So that's either hard seltzers or canned cocktails is one of 10 alcoholic beverages in the US. Was not the case in 2020. It's incredible. Yeah.

Jess (07:27)
Yeah, it's just incredible. Yeah, exactly.

It's just incredible how fast that shifted. And I imagine being a brand leader at that time where that shift is happening, it's probably your organization was wanting to chase a lot of flashy objects, a lot of competitors doing this in the category.

Anna Estlund (07:33)
Yes.

Jess (07:48)
So, I

Anna Estlund (07:48)
Yes.

Jess (07:50)
don't know, you tell me, it's probably an opportunity to really reorient your team's priorities. So how did you do that when it's such a fast moving opportunity?

Anna Estlund (07:56)
Hmm.

Yeah, such a good question. It was, it was hectic at the beginning. One, I was in build mode with my team. So I was personally doing a lot of the insights and strategy work with marketing and with our C suite, honestly, because it was, it's a totally different business model than spirits. You're in a can. So you're like different, different sourcing of aluminum, different production processes.

different shelf life, different route to market, like you want to be cold, cold is sold. So like all of these different things were so fundamentally different that we had to find our way to be true to who we are as canned cocktails, which is very different than hard seltzers. And it took a while to get there. So to your question on resourcing, it was first like just laying that foundational strategy of why is hard seltzers winning, which is all the stuff I just told you.

Then it was finding our way on canned cocktails, is actually solving a little bit of a different pain point. It's most of the stuff I just said, but it's then layering on. It's kind of, there's a lot of barriers to making cocktails at home, right? I might not know how to make it. I'm gonna have all the ingredients on hand. If I do have got a plan for them, I've got to pay for all those separate ingredients. So if you can solve those pain points and bring somebody more of like,

a kick-ass quality cocktail in a can for those convenience moments like I'm at a backyard barbecue, I'm at a beach party, I'm at a concert. That was a pretty big unlock for us, but it took time to say exactly to your point of what not to chase. We at the beginning were, how do we do the hard salter game? It took us time to find our way into a how do we be a more convenient cocktail? That was a very different reframing and unlock that took some time to get there.

Jess (09:49)
Mm-hmm.

Anna Estlund (09:52)
So just to kind of go back to your core question on resourcing with the team, was like build mode at the beginning. Then it was my innovation insights team, like really thinking fast about, okay, now that we have the strategy, what brands do we launch with? What flavors do we do? What's our pack format? What's our pack design? All of that stuff. It kind of transitioned to my shopper insights team over the years because then it was more like, how do you win at retail? How do you help your retailer partners understand like,

what to do with this exploding category? Like, where do you put it in the store? What's the right kind of shelf set, right? Like, how do people, how do your shoppers make decisions in the aisle? Is it more about brand first, flavor first, kind of pack format first, right? So I would say now it's a lot of brand questions. So we have cocktails on our three biggest brands, Jameson, Absolut, and Malibu are kind of the core focus for us.

Which is great because it can also like sync with our brand strategy of signature cocktails. So it's like Jamis and Ginger and Lime, Absolute Cosmo, Malibu, Pina Colada. But then the brand questions back to that is like, okay, well, are we recruiting new people into the brand? it like if I think about my overall net brand budget and just the resources I have, like how do I allocate that for the brand? So the questions in my four and a half years have evolved, but I've always kind of been at that like

really interesting, bigger business question level of like, this is a very fundamentally different business we're getting into. And we have to wrestle with how do you balance that with the needs of your, you know, your core profit driver spirits at the end of the day.

Jess (11:33)
Yeah. Well, what an interesting question to grapple with. And I imagine it didn't go smooth sailing for each of those brand strategies. You probably had some hiccups or sometimes where you had to pivot. Yeah. Kind of like obvious. So can you tell me one of those? What are some of the places where you got tripped up a little bit?

Anna Estlund (11:39)
Yes.

Yeah, I am. So I work in a big global business. So our global brand stewards, you know, for Jameson, sitting Ireland, absolute, sit in Sweden, so on, so on. I would say early on, one of the things was like really helping our global counterparts to understand the convenience culture in the US, which is just really different than the culture in Europe, which is where a lot of our global leaders are from.

So, and I've lived in Europe, so convenience is king here in the US in a way that like our need for speed and willing to pay for convenience is just so ingrained in us. If you go to Europe, it's like a leisurely cafe culture, right? Like a to-go coffee doesn't exist in many places except for the UK. It's looked at more of a fear of if a brand brings something that's more convenient in different format.

there were more hesitations in our organization of what does that do to my core brand? Where in the US as consumers, right? We're like, my gosh, my favorite brand, like give it to me in all ways that make my life easier. Like it's a benefit versus a burden. And so I would say one of those trip ups was just more just helping people understand through empathy, right? Whether that was consumer research and involving them in that, or even just like when they do come here and visit us and do, you know.

strategy discussions or whatever, like getting them into the store. Because that's the other place where you just immediately see like, you know, what a canned cocktail aisle here looks like versus France is like, so different. It's massive here, right? It's bigger than like gin and tequila and some of these other categories that, you know, they would think might be bigger. that was one place I think we found a better way as an organization. And it took some time to get there because it was so US.

culturally driven.

Jess (13:49)
Yeah. Well, that's a great example of how you can enable those global counterparts to gain more empathy for a local market is bring them to the market and let them experience the streets and the restaurants and the stores. Are there any other things that you did to sort of reinforce that empathy building over time? Because sometimes you can learn a lot on that trip. And then how do you take it home and really make sure that it permeates the organization?

Anna Estlund (13:59)
Yeah.

you

Yeah, it's such a good question. So I haven't done this specifically like with the RTD lens or can cocktail lens, but I have done it actually with you guys, with Digg and with Ignite 360, that part of your company, is when they come here is actually have them talk to consumers. So when we had our absolute Malibu and Kaluwa leadership here last fall, we organized just like a really informal thing at a bar.

where we had consumers come in and talk about very broadly, like, what are they drinking? What's their social occasions behind alcohol? How has that changed since COVID? What do they think of XYZ brands? would bring out just very informally bottles from behind the bar and kind of talk through and do little sorting games and stuff. so while that wasn't RTD only, like that moment.

matter so much more sometimes of like the face-to-face part than what I can do of trying to show somebody a video or give you a quote in a deck or give you a stat on the slide or a chart. And budgets don't always allow for that. So it is hard sometimes to like, know, especially at your senior leadership to buy into that. But I found those moments, whether here or at Nestle other companies are some of the most powerful and illuminating, right? Like we all gravitate towards stories.

And so that has been, think one of the more powerful ways to be able to have that.

Jess (15:45)
Yeah. Well, that's a great illustration of how you were able to empower that empathy across the organization. And yes, talking to consumers, hearing it in their words, you know, being kind of, you know, elbow to elbow around the bar is one way to do that. That's a great example.

Anna Estlund (15:51)
Mm.

Yeah.

Jess (16:00)
in terms of, you guys going after canned cocktails in a big way, when did you consider that a success? Did you have a specific milestone or as a business, you said, we did well here?

Anna Estlund (16:10)
It's a great question. think we probably had three phases of success. If I think about it, the first was just getting the strategy right, right? Like which brands, and I mentioned the three and kind of our hero cocktails and really being true to who we are and spirits brands versus playing the seltzer game. The second is like really committing to the business model because like I said, it's, different production. have different, you're selling into a different buyer within retail.

It's just a different game. us investing in some of those capabilities, really thinking deeply about how we structure our teams and our budgets and all of that was a signal, OK, we're in this because the consumer demand is there, and that's not going to go away. And yes, you can make cocktails more convenient with plus ones, like a gin and tonic, but still this is meeting a different occasion, a different consumer's needs. And so that realization to me was really big.

The third and probably most important is the business impact. So we are the top vodka and rum selling brands with Incant Cocktails, which is amazing with Absolute Malibu. We're in the top three with Jameson. We've had the biggest launch last year with Absolute Ocean Spray, which was a really successful partnership for us. So proof is in the pudding, I guess, there and actually meeting consumer needs but driving the business too. And recruiting new consumers into our brands has been a huge.

Jess (17:37)
It's a big deal. It's sort of the holy grail, right, of what any beverage alcohol manufacturer really wants. So what's your biggest takeaway from this canned cocktail experience that continues to evolve? But what's your biggest learning?

Anna Estlund (17:39)
Yeah.

Yes.

So I've lived this kind of just now across big category shifts. So Greek yogurt, granola and cereal, this one in alcohol, I'm sure there are more. I guess my reflection as a kind of strategy and insights leader is to really think about the question behind the question you're getting. And so there's probably two areas I would hunt because naturally when these new categories emerge,

you get lot of doubters on why, how should we go into that new category. And the two areas I think that I would dig first and my lessons learned have been really deeply understand the business model and really understand the objections behind brand stretch. So the business model, all the things I said, you have to invest in all the new production processes and route to markets. the question behind the question there is like,

Jess (18:41)
Hmm.

Anna Estlund (18:49)
Is it more profitable than what I'm doing today? And that can be hard to show in a very simple way, right? Like, insights teams will get asked, like, what's the incrementality on it? Like, am I bringing in new users or, you new dollars to the category or what's the size of prize? But that still doesn't get you to the heart of like, is it worth my financial investment behind these capabilities and processes? That's a much bigger strategy question. So that to me is a critical one.

Jess (18:53)
Right, yeah.

Anna Estlund (19:16)
And then especially in the marketing world, like brand stretch. I guess the fundamental question usually behind the question is, can our existing brands play in this space? Or do we think we have to build a new brand to do it? Or sorry, build or acquire a new brand to do it. Building and acquiring new brands are really expensive. But sometimes doing it with your core brands, it's the classic innovators dilemma where it's really hard for your big brand to dedicate the

Jess (19:33)
Mm-hmm.

Anna Estlund (19:46)
Time, space, energy, money, all of that, because your core business is usually so well-grewed over the years that you got a system that works. And when you bring in a different business model, it's hard for that big parent brand to say, I'm going to give different time and energy to this other thing that might or might not be as profitable, right? So again, those are much deeper questions than can my brand play in RTD, but that's surface level question you'll get. So you really...

If you want to make an impact and help the organization really think through these trade-offs, think you've got to of like level it up slash go deeper on the questions.

last one,

Jess (20:23)
Yeah.

Anna Estlund (20:24)
I would say that like, I don't have a lesson learned on, and I would love if your listeners or viewers had an answer for me or you had an answer for me, is helping the company to see those trade-offs like early on on what if you don't act now.

Jess (20:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Anna Estlund (20:42)
Because once you get

later on, like that's where I see brands ending up having to acquire or build a new brand, whatever, which is super expensive. So it's really hard to tell that story early on though when A, think something's emerging as a new category or B, you kind of are dabbling there but haven't fully unlocked all of the kind of capabilities and business model behind it. So the like trade-offs of what if not, I have not.

quite correct.

Jess (21:13)
Yeah. Well, and that's thanks for sharing that because, know, we don't have all the answers. And I do think that one of the things that I think is a magical combination is when you can look at a business question like that with the forward looking perspective that saying, what are those emerging market signals? What are those consumer trends that are informing the opportunities of tomorrow? But then also with the quantification to build the business case, to give that confidence to your leaders and

that balance is super hard to achieve, especially when you are at different points in time of an explosive segment like that. So I can definitely empathize with how difficult it would have been in real time to do it. But it's that marriage of those two perspectives that I think, you know, businesses need in order to make those decisions and invest in the right spots. But

Anna Estlund (21:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jess (22:02)
Okay, Anna, so now let's turn to you as the thought leader. Clearly you are in organization as well as in the industry and you have a really passionate point of view about a topic that I can't wait to dig into. And that is the idea that shopper insights is sexy. So tell me about this concept, why you believe it so passionately and really what that means to you.

Anna Estlund (22:24)
Yes, Jess, I believe shopper insights is sexy because of the business impact you can have and the career unlock it can have for you within insights. And I think the reason I'm so passionate about it is it gets so overshadowed by brand marketing and advertising. So when I'm asked to speak on stuff like this or even internally, it's a lot of times it's about advertising and creative effectiveness.

Cause that's perceived as the fun part of marketing, right? It's like the Don Drake burr ad agency part of marketing, but it's only one of the four PUs at the end of the day. Like we tend to overlook the price and the promotion and the place and that part that is like such a critical growth driver. you'll get any marketing mix model, will tell you the fundamentals matter more. and you know, I think it's maybe it's cause it feels more like sales than marketing. I'm not sure, but.

I'm here to tell you it's just as sexy. super passionate about this. I'm like actively trying to think about how to persuade people in the industry about this. So I'm happy to talk about it more with you.

Jess (23:33)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, I love it as a premise. And I think part of probably what is making this a bigger topic nowadays is just that the more traditional insights of shopper insights, sorry, the more traditional definition of shopper insights has really changed because now we have so many blurred lines, right? It's with the presence of Omnichannel. It's on this idea of we're not just shoppers or consumers, we're humans at the end of the day. So I think all those

Anna Estlund (23:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah.

Jess (24:01)
know, expanding of definitions and blurring of lines has really brought that to bear. So how do you define shopper insights today? What all does it encompass?

Anna Estlund (24:07)
Yes.

Yeah, such a good question. I guess there's three things that have changed that I'll get to your question of like, what does it include? Because I think it's really broad. So, Shaper Insights kind of grew up in CPG like Insights did in general, And so a lot of that was how do you win at retail for these big, you know, serial soap manufacturers, whatever. So now to your point, have OmniChannel. So e-commerce has totally changed that. And you have not just manufacturers, but retailers with Insights teams. So the Kroger's and the Amazons of the world.

have massive insights in analytics teams. Second, you have a lot more D to C brands who have their own data to play around with. So you have kind of like user experience or UX mixed up with that. And the third would be just the critical importance in how we've gotten smarter. And a lot of data unlocks and tech unlocks have helped on pricing or what in CPG we call revenue growth management. So I would say that like,

All of those three things coming together have made shopper insights no longer just about how do I win at retail. It can be, know, how do I, it's fundamentally to me, it's about what are the insights behind the purchase of my product or service and how do I think about those insights to better, you know, convert you at that moment of truth. So that could be.

know, shopper insights for CPG, for retailer, for a DTC, for UX. I would argue a lot of B2B actually cover shopper insights. I think pricing is a huge part of that that often sits with finance, honestly, and CPG from what I'm observing. And I think there's better ways to wire that kind of to insights and marketing. So it could be like so big and broad and beautiful, and we tend to just think about it still really narrow.

So I think that's one of the things that's holding it back, but what could make it super sexy?

Jess (26:04)
Yeah, I totally agree. And the other thing that we talked about is, you know, every type of research has some tie back to the business, right? Some measure of ROI or tangible impact back to the business. Why is that idea particularly important when you think about the role of shopper?

Anna Estlund (26:15)
Hmm

Yeah, I think one of the reasons it's so sexy Jess is because of that business impact and that like feeling of like being tangible. You're just closer to the point of purchase or the time the money hands over I guess so you you feel the impact of your work I guess a lot more. So you can say things like I helped sell this and I hate help change this shelf set I helped improve the conversion on my site.

It's a feeling of immediate gratification. so beyond that, to your point on impact, it's a place that across my team, I can actually like very easily quantify the impact. So if my team, we do pricing studies, we do kind of what we call line optimizer studies or assortments, right? So if you've got a big, a brand like the Glenn Leavitt, which has a lot of different age statements of our scops. So it's 12 year old, 14 year 15 year old, et cetera.

And you're trying to think like kind of what is the best lineup for that brand and does it differ by channel? And then how does price play in all of those things? If I say we helped unlock the pricing insights behind Jameson, we optimize the, you know, the assortment strategy for the Glenn Levitt that unlock and translating it into actual cases sold is much easier for me to kind of rationally think through then.

contributing to this ad, contributing to this product launch, it's just closer to the moment. even if Insights people don't find that business impact as sexy, I can give you another way in. Empathy, it's a place that I think empathy is really lacking. I guess that definitely is a place where empathy is needed.

So we have done some awesome empathy tracks with both our marketing and commercial teams to try to just put people in the shoes of the shopper. So, and you can make this super fun. So for example, we did one where it's like, okay, imagine you're Cory and you're in a situationship and you're gonna be at a party where that person is there and you have to bring like an alcohol to the party. Like how are you gonna shop? What are you gonna do?

versus another team then goes and says, now you're in the mindset of you're planning a Super Bowl party and my gosh, you're hosting like 15 or 20 people. And of course you have to think about all the snacks and like, you're gonna have to know how like easy it is to make these, you know, drinks, right? So putting it like helping the team understand that that shopping mindset or mission or whatever, differs that a lot between, you know, what people actually are trying to buy for.

can dictate how they shop, where you show up, how you show up in store, all of those things. Just people don't tend to think through that a lot because in store it's kind of like it's very tactical on like what's your price on your shelf set and stuff. the impact that that can have on unlock on thinking of your strategy or how simple your messaging needs to be on shelf or what your, even like your retail media strategy or whatever.

is really can really have a big impact because it's an untapped opportunity. So the impact opportunities are bad.

Jess (29:40)
Absolutely. Now, I love that kind of combination of the, I guess you're closer to that, know, final moment that really matters when they buy you. And so that's a more direct correlation. And you can actually say, you know, I contributed to that. But also, I love the tie in of empathy, because I think that probably is not at the forefront of thought when it comes to shopper. And it really should be. So those are those are great examples. And for all these reasons.

Anna Estlund (29:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yes. Yes.

Jess (30:07)
that probably contributes to why you really believe that Shopper Insights is a career unlock. Tell us more about why you think that, but also how that plays out with how you coach your teams. I'm really curious.

Anna Estlund (30:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a question. I believe insights leaders need to be well-rounded like a CMO would be, right? So well-rounded in the like kind of traditional areas of insights would be brand, shopper innovation and portfolio or kind of capability building. You can go broader than that and go analytics and strategy and stuff too. But it's a place that I see a barrier just happening. And so this is across companies. It's not only here.

Is I see so many people gravitating towards the brand and innovation parts of insights For different reasons. It's the you know, they might think it's more strategic. I have more fun I have more visibility with brand marketers. It kind of tend to be the ones that go up to CMO So maybe like that's a career thing But I'll give you a personal story like for me it was a huge career unlock for me It helped fast-track me to director so

Early on in my career, I raised my hand for a shopper insights role because it was one of the places I hadn't touched. I wanted to do it early and kind of get my feet wet early on it. And I literally had a scene where I really trusted, be like, what are you doing? Why are you going there? Why do you want to do that? So it just gives you a feeling of the perception of those types of roles. And I cannot tell you just how much I learned in that role. One, you're a better marketer because

You have to learn to think like a salesperson. You have to sell yourself and your stuff, your products and your services. You're selling in like one hook. You can't have a flowery concept, backpack language, all the stuff we think through deeply as marketers, you realize very quickly, like doesn't really matter. I mean, and yes, it matters, but like at the first moment of truth or the first trial, like the first time you get somebody to pay attention, you're even like be aware of you.

Jess (32:06)
Right, right?

Anna Estlund (32:13)
You gotta be so succinct. You gotta really get to the core of what matters. And I learned that so fast in that role. I think the other thing is like, you just think about more end to end what we were talking about of like the buyer and the user of your stuff fundamentally, like can be different. And so you have a better well-rounded view of end to end brand strategy because you think more 360, I guess, and you learn how to bridge that.

the common divide between marketing and sales. You know, they don't always speak the same language. They don't always have the same incentives. And that's part of, think, the reason behind this, if I'm honest. Because I would argue shopper marketing probably has a similar barrier. And it's just as sexy. So for me, it was a career unlock. think it's in coaching my team that's the same thing. It's like, hey, guys, like, because the lines are also blurrier in insights these days, like, yes, I have a brand and innovation and a shopper team.

But I'll tell you, my brand team does pricing work. My shopper team does category work about winning in whiskey and brand love with bartenders that you could chalk up to brand work. It's not as cut and dry as it maybe at once was. And if you want to get to bigger business questions anyways, where more of the impact of the organization is, you've got to kind of ladder up above those silos anyways.

Jess (33:21)
Right.

Anna Estlund (33:34)
So if you round up and kind of shore up that shop or part of thinking commercially, kind of thinking, know, succinctly, moment of truth, all of that, it makes you a better marketer. It makes you a better brand marketer at the end of the day. So that's my hope.

Jess (33:47)
It makes you sexier. I mean, if we just were to summarize it. That's amazing. I love that perspective. And what's your hot take on the future of the insights industry in general? And I realize that is a very big question, but.

Anna Estlund (33:49)
It makes you sexier. That's right. That's right, Jess.

I think insights is broader than we think it is. And maybe that's kind of been a theme in what we've been talking about, of like these blurry lines and all of that. I think insights as a function will be more successful if we stop boxing ourselves into marketing research, which we still kind of do a lot, even though we don't talk about it that way, but.

It's kind of the core of where we like, if we go to any insights conference, it's where we spend our time talking versus like, Hey, go up to these big business model questions and strategy because it's why you have strategy consultants like the Baines and McKinsey's of the world, like taking some of the insights work that we hold so dear to our heart on marketing research and kind of what does it mean and it's like action and all of that.

Jess (34:30)
Right, right.

Anna Estlund (34:49)
because they can think more broadly about what does it mean, like yes, the insights, but then how does it fit broader to the org? How do I activate it? What does it mean for the structural decision? How do I scale it, et cetera? So the more we think of ourselves as strategy insights and analytics, like as a bigger thing versus just insights marketing research, I think the better off we'll be. And that's even been an evolution of my thinking in my time at Pernaut.

I've thought of myself more as a marketer, but I'm trying not to almost pigeonhole myself as an insights person as much lately too. So that's my latest hot take, I guess.

Jess (35:27)
Yeah. Well, I love that broader definition. There's so much impact to be had there. So we're going to turn to the final dig. This is all about you as a consumer, Anna. So can't wait to hear your responses here. What's the last product or service you bought on impulse?

Anna Estlund (35:31)
Hmm.

Yeah

Back to our shopper insights conversation, I might struggle to delineate my online shopping, which is the vast majority of my shopping, between like impulse and just browsing. So I would argue most of my close shopping is browsing slash impulse. It's not really like a mission. A more tangible example for you that I could think of would be OPI nail polish.

Jess (36:03)
Right.

Anna Estlund (36:09)
Nail polish is one of the things that's harder to buy online because you can't see the color or like the shine or the sparkle or whatever as much. So I recently bought three different colors of nail polish when I saw it in person.

Jess (36:23)
Very nice. Hopefully you got out of your comfort zone. That's one place that we can do that I feel is on the. What's a category or a brand that you could rationalize any price point for? You just have to have it in your life.

Anna Estlund (36:26)
Hahaha

Jess, I am irrationally loyal to and irrationally price insensitive to my Minnesota sports teams. Specifically the Minnesota Twins, Vikings, and Timberwolves. This very much encompasses a broad view of being a fan. So game tickets, streaming services, jerseys, merch, all of the things. Luckily I've worked.

Jess (36:47)
I totally get it.

Anna Estlund (37:05)
for two of those three teams. So I've had some hookups over the years and still have many friends in sports. So very, must be in my life.

Jess (37:18)
Yeah, I am the same way. My team happens to be the San Francisco 49ers, but my kids will go like, well, I don't know if I can ask for this extra thing at Christmas. I'm like, is it merch? Yeah, of course I'm going to say yes to that. Like, And we won't talk about questionable, super bold decision making either. Okay, so we love this one. Brands have distinct personalities. What's a brand you would date and a brand that you would marry? And they can be the same brand or they can be different. You have that freedom.

Anna Estlund (37:23)
Mmm.

And...

I am in a lifelong relationship with the Jordan brand under Nike. Ever since I was a kid playing basketball, I've loved Michael Jordan, Nike. I love the gear, so I wear a lot of it. So it's kind of that like sporty street fashion, I guess. I love the brand. So Jordan to me feels like a brand of champions, I guess. So.

their partnerships with like Paris Saint Germain soccer or Mookie Betts in baseball, Jason Tate in the basketball, could go on. But also they're just activation and tone of voice as a marketer I really appreciate. So they did like a drone show over San Francisco for the NBA All-Star game recently. They worked with Luca and when he got traded to the Lakers, they did some like, they kind of trolled his former team in a couple of different ways, which I was here for.

Jess (38:28)
Mm-hmm.

Anna Estlund (38:44)
And so just end to end, married, already married to Jordan.

Jess (38:50)
Got it. And would you choose a different? Yeah, I was gonna say, would you pick a, would you cheat on Jordan for a minute?

Anna Estlund (38:50)
Date?

A

minute, yes. I will, I think I'm gonna date Liquid Death. Liquid Death is just so intriguing to me, having worked across a couple of that categories. It's like the bad ass, I don't know, edgy rock and roll exterior, all that skull imagery, right? But on the inside, it's just good free water. And again, like.

Jess (39:04)
Mmm.

Anna Estlund (39:23)
Their activations in tone of voice are just so, like, I love, so amazing to me. So, you know, they do like collaborations with Metallica, which is a very young brand. They, last year they did that stunt around Super Bowl time where they sold ad space on their packaging to Coinbase for some like insane amount of money to just play on like reach and eyeballs and stuff.

So it's kind of that like naughty outside, nice inside brand, guess I'll take.

Jess (39:55)
I love that. And those are, can push the boundaries, right? They can get away with that crazy stuff. That's awesome. Yeah, those are great. And finally, what keeps you inspired at work? You seem like such an inspired human and professional. What keeps doing it for you?

Anna Estlund (39:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I think for me it's kind of where I started is working in a global business is just something I love. And the reason for that is you, one, I get like a daily exposure to different cultures that just fascinates me as an insights person and like almost like the anthropology side of me that get nerds out of how different cultures operate.

both from a consumer standpoint, but also just my coworkers, like how you influence different cultures is fascinating to me. I will approach my French team different than my Irish team, than my American team. And so being in that global business and also just thinking of like the big business questions you have as a global business of like, when do you scale something globally versus when do you localize and go, you know, more of what matters to the US or to New York or whatever.

Jess (40:42)
Yeah.

Anna Estlund (41:05)
is just really interesting to me. So that keeps me constantly learning and motivated. And in spite.

Jess (41:13)
Yeah, well, absolutely. And that empathy for global counterparts, that's only going to personify an importance. So I'm so glad that you're one of the leaders forging the way. And thank you so much for sharing your lessons and your perspective. I think Shopper Insights is sexy and I'm here for this movement.

Anna Estlund (41:19)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yay! Okay,

good. We've got a movement. I love it. Thank you so much, Jess.

Jess (41:36)
for joining.