00;00;17;04 - 00;00;41;22
Speaker 1
Welcome back to this week's episode of Dig In. It's a very special episode. It's a packed episode. We've got our four founders on the call. We've got Dom Paul in, and Michael joining us to chat about the history of Dead. Talk a little bit about what's happened over the last 12 years to make us the company we are today and then what the future of Digg looks like.

00;00;42;02 - 00;00;44;01
Speaker 1
Digg and Upsides. Welcome, guys.

00;00;45;01 - 00;00;45;20
Speaker 2
Thank you.

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Speaker 3
I imagine, you know.

00;00;48;17 - 00;00;50;24
Speaker 2
That's that's the level of excitement we have right now.

00;00;51;19 - 00;00;52;02
Speaker 1
Hi.

00;00;54;25 - 00;01;23;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's it's kind of cool to be interviewing, I guess, all my bosses. It's interesting. Exciting to have you guys on the pod in. You're usually in this role, so this time you're in the hot seat. I wanted to ask you guys a little bit about the history of Digg. Now that we've rebranded I wanted to get a sense of what is that like origin story, the thing that founders always get asked, how did you guys set up Michael?

00;01;23;01 - 00;01;24;11
Speaker 1
Do you want to run us through that?

00;01;24;29 - 00;01;45;09
Speaker 4
Yeah, sure. And anyone else, feel free to jump in if I if I missed anything. So first of all, just the sort of technical bit of it is we were founded in middle of 2010, so it's never heading into the middle of 2020 to sit around our 12 year anniversary I think was right June or July of 2010 when we got started and you know, it's hard to say why did we do it?

00;01;45;09 - 00;02;05;15
Speaker 4
It's hard to give a really succinct answer. And I think any time you talk to founders they tend to say, well, we wanted to do something different or better. So what is different or better look like for us? I think there were a few elements to it. I think one of the elements was the use of technology. So around 20, ten, you know, as you know, since the dawn of time, probably technology has been changing really quickly.

00;02;05;24 - 00;02;25;22
Speaker 4
But around 2010 we saw a lot more use of mobile and the research industry as a whole hadn't yet pivoted to really be mobile focused. So that was a big thing for us. The other thing that we really wanted to do is make more use of analytics and data modeling. A few things there. We wanted to be able to visualize data in a different way to give our clients a sense of what things literally look like.

00;02;25;22 - 00;02;45;20
Speaker 4
When we talked about this, what is the market look like? We wanted to create those data visualizations, and then we also wanted to be able to present data in a more business focused way. So rather than the traditional focus within research of presenting percentages, you know, 80% like blue and 70% like red, we wanted to be able to present to our clients more business metrics.

00;02;45;20 - 00;03;04;04
Speaker 4
So things like units and dollars, volume and profitability, those sorts of things. And I think the last component of it is we wanted to have a bit of a different working environment. So different from your typical agency. What that meant for us was more collaborative. We had to be collaborative because there's four of us. There couldn't be sort of one dominating personality.

00;03;04;19 - 00;03;23;15
Speaker 4
And then the other side of that was a company that sort of was a little bit flatter and more encouraged, creative so with the idea that creativity can come from anywhere, we can explore things and try different things. I think that was that was really important to us. I don't know if I missed anything, but those are the things that that set of me is why we came together.

00;03;24;14 - 00;03;53;27
Speaker 3
I was like, Can I work for free? Is there any way I can get rid of this pesky paycheck? That was what I was looking for. I was the most fun part of the beginning. That line of credit is really good. Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything Michael said, and those are all very sound, rational reasons, but I think it was a very emotional part of it, too, is that, you know, we we met working at a different agency, and I just think we all felt like we could do something like it was betting on ourselves.

00;03;53;27 - 00;04;12;23
Speaker 3
You know, we've been doing it for many years now. And I think we just knew that if we really roll it, we rolled up our sleeves before we could we could create something and we didn't really know exactly what it would look like. But I think we knew that the hard work that we'd been doing to that point, if we just kept doing it for ourselves, it would eventually pay off.

00;04;12;25 - 00;04;15;21
Speaker 1
So I mean.

00;04;16;02 - 00;04;22;15
Speaker 2
I was just going to do whatever you guys are doing. So I just follow and say that's that sweet.

00;04;22;15 - 00;04;29;26
Speaker 1
I love that I hear it wasn't always called Digg. Well, is that a rumor or is that true?

00;04;30;20 - 00;04;32;19
Speaker 4
That is true. It was originally called Art.

00;04;32;27 - 00;04;35;14
Speaker 3
Which art marketing insight well.

00;04;35;14 - 00;04;36;13
Speaker 4
Yeah, that's right.

00;04;36;14 - 00;04;42;08
Speaker 3
Maybe I was Dominic Dot Atkinson at Art Marketing Insight. They wrapped around to the back of my business car.

00;04;43;22 - 00;05;06;25
Speaker 4
That is very true. I abbreviated to so what we went through that it was, it was it actually illustrates the value of research because it's a name that I came up with by myself. And I was like, That's cool. And I just sort of made it the name and everyone just sort of went with it. But then when we ever we explained it to people, they didn't get it because they thought we were like a design agency or an advertising agency.

00;05;07;12 - 00;05;11;10
Speaker 2
And our names were all my names were all art. Yeah, that was the other thing.

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Speaker 4
Yeah. Was designed to being.

00;05;13;02 - 00;05;14;21
Speaker 1
Do you guys all go buy art?

00;05;14;23 - 00;05;15;29
Speaker 2
We all go buy art, yes.

00;05;16;19 - 00;05;21;01
Speaker 4
For a while we were known as the guys who art, and then we were the guys in Digg and eventually the customer.

00;05;21;02 - 00;05;25;12
Speaker 3
And why no us. We just had one insight. We were there and.

00;05;25;20 - 00;05;45;20
Speaker 4
That was to keep the name length manageable. Yes, that way it was manageable. The actual inspiration was a quote from Andy Warhol, a big Andy Warhol fit, and he said something along the lines of The Greatest Art is succeeding in business. And I thought that was actually really cool because it's true that, like I say, Andy Warhol is starting and he's making paintings.

00;05;45;20 - 00;06;15;24
Speaker 4
There's a million painters out there. How do you break through? How do you get attention? How do you drive demand and create desire to own what you've created? And I thought it was sort of the same thing for us where there's a million research agencies. Someone I know for a very long time actually discouraged me from doing this because just like there's a million research agencies, why do we need 1,000,001 when I thought it's true, but how can you create something that's different that stands out from the market that people desire that is a certain art, and there's an art and a science there.

00;06;15;24 - 00;06;22;07
Speaker 4
And I thought that was a cool name. And then no one got it. No one got the Andy Warhol reference, but there it is. And that we tend to the big.

00;06;22;28 - 00;06;33;29
Speaker 1
Wheel now they will. Everyone's going to listen. Everyone's going to tune into this. No, no, no, no, no. And I like that you stuck with the three letters Arts and Digg there you go.

00;06;34;10 - 00;06;41;20
Speaker 2
It's unfortunate, though, that everyone thought that Digg was now dominant and good debt and then they just left you out of it. So there's that.

00;06;42;01 - 00;06;48;20
Speaker 4
My standard reply to that is I'm the insider. So I still I still have a role. The whole role.

00;06;52;20 - 00;07;11;09
Speaker 3
But one funny story on the branding for a while, our phone, whenever we called someone, the display on the other end is instead of saying Digg Incited said big insight because someone a bell Canada or a Rogers had put in the wrong name on the account. So you know it sends dig inside home with the big insight.

00;07;12;19 - 00;07;13;03
Speaker 1
I love.

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Speaker 3
That several months that's what was our called and.

00;07;15;16 - 00;07;18;05
Speaker 2
Still true we are the home of the big insight.

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Speaker 3
But.

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Speaker 1
Just one just one big.

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Speaker 3
Insight.

00;07;23;10 - 00;07;26;02
Speaker 1
Any other funny memories from when you guys started out.

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Speaker 2
Like you're.

00;07;28;02 - 00;07;31;28
Speaker 1
Memorable that aren't to be funny but just interesting fodder.

00;07;32;23 - 00;07;36;19
Speaker 2
I mean we know that we started out in Michael's basement. That's where we started out.

00;07;37;06 - 00;07;58;20
Speaker 3
Our first of four offices. And I remember the first week we were all sitting there in Michael's basement. There's no air conditioning. This dog this puppy, Max, came in and sat in the middle between all four of us and just took a dump on the floor and left. And it was kind of like not a of confidence.

00;08;02;09 - 00;08;04;02
Speaker 1
Things are going really well.

00;08;04;08 - 00;08;04;26
Speaker 3
So, in fact.

00;08;06;13 - 00;08;11;22
Speaker 4
It was only up from there. Like things can get better OK?

00;08;12;05 - 00;08;40;19
Speaker 2
But I remember like I mean, like, we've come a long way. I mean, we were in Michael's basement at the beginning where obviously dogs are free to take shifts on the ground. We graduated to our first office, which was literally just a room inside of an office building, but that we would have dirty dishes into a bin that I would take home every evening, put them through our dishwasher and return the next dad's been have cleaned dishes I don't know why I did that.

00;08;40;19 - 00;08;41;12
Speaker 2
And we still haven't.

00;08;41;14 - 00;08;42;18
Speaker 3
On we had no running water.

00;08;42;20 - 00;08;49;20
Speaker 2
No, I get why we why why did it? Because we had no running water. But I don't know why I had to do it all the time.

00;08;49;20 - 00;08;52;01
Speaker 3
We didn't cause a heavy, heavy been.

00;08;52;21 - 00;08;59;19
Speaker 2
But that was, you know, that was that was our first true actual office. It was it was a cool little spot down and clean as banana.

00;09;01;25 - 00;09;13;20
Speaker 1
And I feel like for anyone who's tuning in and doesn't know dig super well there are 200, almost 200 employees now so it is not still. So for founders with Max in the basement.

00;09;14;02 - 00;09;34;29
Speaker 2
Yeah. No. And then we graduated and from that office and went to the top floor of a Spanish speaking school and and that was a fun office too. But still, you know, you're on top of a language school. So, you know, we are we're trying to find the best rent in town and downtown Toronto. And I think now we've let's say we've kind of made it.

00;09;34;29 - 00;09;46;21
Speaker 2
We're we're in the nicest building on our block. I like completely where I'm on the not so nice is building on our block, but right in the core of downtown Toronto. And it's pretty cool office space. So we've come a long way.

00;09;48;03 - 00;09;50;02
Speaker 3
But it's but it's close to 711.

00;09;50;02 - 00;09;53;28
Speaker 2
So that was the attraction. That's why we go, yeah, that's the reason why we got it.

00;09;54;26 - 00;09;56;24
Speaker 1
We're big 7-Eleven fans when.

00;09;56;24 - 00;10;13;23
Speaker 3
We moved in to get supplies in and a couple of our colleagues went downstairs and bought every single hot item from 7-Eleven. So all the taquitos and everything. And we had a tasting menu. It was it's been past what we we only lost one person. What I love, what I love about Alvin, Ella.

00;10;15;01 - 00;10;49;18
Speaker 2
What I love about the early days though, is this like and I think it goes back to that idea of collaborating and taking risks and trying things like we we kind of supported each other in whatever it is we wanted to do. Like, you know, whether it was selling a client on a new approach or even if it was like a new marketing technique that that wanted to do with literally sending out people postcards as a new way to entice business with a it was a postcard that was a picture of a postcard that actually said, wish you were here with a question mark, as in like, you know, do you wish that you were

00;10;49;29 - 00;11;09;20
Speaker 2
part of Digg or working with DE? Do you wish that you were here? We never say the matter. We never said any of those out there. I think there might still be in our office in a box over. But, you know, you have to you have to try it. You have to support ideas. And even if they're not fantastic ones or you never know, maybe it was a fantastic one.

00;11;09;20 - 00;11;10;13
Speaker 2
We just didn't try it.

00;11;10;23 - 00;11;15;00
Speaker 4
So Ian really was the founder of our marketing department, which Meghan now heads up. So that's.

00;11;15;00 - 00;11;15;13
Speaker 3
True.

00;11;15;17 - 00;11;16;14
Speaker 4
Wish you were here.

00;11;16;23 - 00;11;18;24
Speaker 2
At work and maybe it finally work yeah.

00;11;20;03 - 00;11;23;01
Speaker 3
I think we can agree it wasn't a good idea. LT, I love.

00;11;23;01 - 00;11;25;16
Speaker 4
I love that it. There's a postcard of a postcard, but.

00;11;26;02 - 00;11;46;21
Speaker 3
Like I said, it was a very meta. We were asking the question. It was layers, it was you. But I think the other thing, the other thing we experimented with remember we had no no titles no one had a title on their card or even really in their job. And that didn't work particularly well.

00;11;47;26 - 00;11;48;29
Speaker 2
Well, it worked for the four of us.

00;11;49;11 - 00;11;53;24
Speaker 3
Yeah. But for everybody else, they're like, what's, you know, how do I what's my role? That's right.

00;11;54;12 - 00;12;00;27
Speaker 4
Well, those are challenging when people are like, What did you get promoted? From nothing to nothing. Yeah, it was a bit hard.

00;12;01;04 - 00;12;04;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. They can't maintain that flat organization forever. It's true.

00;12;04;23 - 00;12;24;05
Speaker 1
I think that that's something a lot of startups try though. Like, no title I at one point, I think my first job, my name was just Insight's Champion, which doesn't mean anything. No one, no one knows what that is, but it helped with the flat structure.

00;12;25;11 - 00;12;31;03
Speaker 2
We also I mean, we went through the starter phase. We had the foosball tournament in the office. We had a.

00;12;31;03 - 00;12;32;06
Speaker 3
Basketball table.

00;12;32;12 - 00;12;51;02
Speaker 2
A ping pong table, we had a basketball net. And then bookkeeping, you know, people would be hard at work. And then all of a sudden one guy would come over and just start playing basketball. Like, you know, with all the with all the sounds and everything going off and me scoring a point like, what do you say? Anyways, it didn't it lasted, but it we realized we grew out of that phase.

00;12;51;02 - 00;12;52;05
Speaker 2
We had to grow out of that phase.

00;12;54;02 - 00;13;11;23
Speaker 3
And then there are more like this cycle. And then the Nerf wars, the Nerf gun wars in the office. And so somebody who we they shot someone else in the eye it was it it was one of the four of us. I don't know the way it was.

00;13;12;04 - 00;13;17;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's not intended injury, but the injury hadn't put a stop to the gun laws.

00;13;17;08 - 00;13;18;23
Speaker 3
The AI turned out to be just fine.

00;13;18;23 - 00;13;24;16
Speaker 1
All good. I'm glad to hear it. The listeners will be happy to hear that. No left. And I.

00;13;24;21 - 00;13;28;22
Speaker 3
Know last night Nerf Gun, we haven't lost anybody since the tasting menu from several.

00;13;31;29 - 00;14;02;28
Speaker 1
Oh, I love that. OK, so tons of fun memories. I think when we initially decided to do this episode, we talked about specific kind of inflection, points of growth or meaningful moments that you guys have had over the last 12 years. Is there anything that comes to mind for you that really speaks to, you know, I knew that this was going to work or I knew that we were really moving in the right direction down not to put you on the spot, but I'll kick off with you.

00;14;05;29 - 00;14;22;13
Speaker 3
It's a good question and I, I can think about some big projects we've won over the years where it's OK. We're now really competing with some, some of the big established companies and we were able to beat them. I actually think for me it was this it wasn't a specific point in time, but it's in the early days.

00;14;22;13 - 00;14;44;28
Speaker 3
It was really hard to convince people to come work with us because we couldn't promise that we'd pay them every two weeks, although we did, we never missed a paycheck. But people were taking a bit of a gamble on us. And we we had a couple of mis hires early on, but we reached a point where we started to realize that all these amazing people in our relatively small industry, we're hearing about the work we're doing, and they wanted to be a part of it.

00;14;44;28 - 00;15;04;26
Speaker 3
And to me, that was a real sign that we'd actually created something worthwhile, that people were coming to us and asking if there are opportunities. I mean, the very first job we posted for a VP, Marci Conant, is now an executive vice president. Dick's amazing, been with us for ten years, called me and said, So what do you looking for in this role?

00;15;04;26 - 00;15;18;23
Speaker 3
And you seem like you're the perfect person to this. And when someone of her caliber reached out to us when she was interested, I knew we we passed that. That's startup ish days and we actually had something meaningful.

00;15;20;02 - 00;15;24;28
Speaker 1
That's awesome. That's so cool. I didn't know that story, and I know that she's been with us for so long.

00;15;24;28 - 00;15;36;04
Speaker 3
So and it continues to this day. It's it's a lot easier for us to to recruit people now because they want to be a part of what we've built here as opposed to trying to convince them that this is a place they should take and think about on.

00;15;38;01 - 00;15;38;29
Speaker 1
Paul, what about you.

00;15;41;27 - 00;16;16;20
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, there's I mean, God, there's so many it's it's weird. There's so many points, I think throughout this last 12 years that I could say our inflection points are it's also just us feeling like the world is spinning and just kind of dealing with everything that's going on. But, you know, I look back on, you know, some of the the memories of even just having our strategy offsides where we, you know, and there's, there's been many where we've kind of thought about what the next five years looks like and what that growth might look like and how and actually how accurate we were in forecasting what our growth could look like.

00;16;16;20 - 00;16;43;26
Speaker 2
But the one in particular when we said, you know, we made a strategic decision as a management team to basically invest in technology and make sure that we opened up the Chicago office. And I think that in 2016 when we when we had that I'd and we came to that conclusion and I remember it wasn't just the four of us, we had the full management team there, you know, we had Patricia and Corey and Elizabeth and Kevin and Robin and a number of our, our biggest who are still with us today.

00;16;44;25 - 00;17;11;18
Speaker 2
Part of that conversation and helping us get to that point where we all agreed that those were the big initiatives and you know, fast forward now another six years, we have a growing and stable US office that's already around 15 people we've got an amazing technology offering and SAS platform that we've spent a ton of time and energy on that is first class and just amazing technology I think.

00;17;11;27 - 00;17;17;06
Speaker 2
How do we not had that that come to that consensus back in 2016? I don't know that we would be here today.

00;17;17;28 - 00;17;27;00
Speaker 3
I thought you were going to mention the off site where the four of us went to the Scandinavian spot in Collingwood and that was a different kind of an inflection.

00;17;31;02 - 00;17;36;18
Speaker 2
It was more of a reflection as a result of that. I am pretty pale.

00;17;39;10 - 00;17;41;20
Speaker 1
And Michael, anything to add there?

00;17;42;23 - 00;18;06;21
Speaker 3
I mean for me it was two, there was two moments where I thought like we'd done, we'd figured out the right direction. I think the first one and I'm actually going to credit Michael with probably both of these, but I think the first one was we realized that like portfolio optimization with discrete choice, that really was something unique.

00;18;06;21 - 00;18;26;04
Speaker 3
So we could do that, you know, was highly analytical that other companies couldn't easily do. We were competing in a different way. I think when we first started doing that, I thought, Yeah, this is it. This is, this is the right direction finally, because, you know, we were doing a lot of what everybody else was doing at the very beginning.

00;18;26;16 - 00;18;52;24
Speaker 3
Trying to come up with some unique things. But that was truly unique and we were actually doing it better and we do it better now than we did at that. But even then we were doing something better than what other people were doing. And then I think the second one was when we were having these brainstorming sessions around methodologies and and Michael came up with, with what's now upside in terms of why don't we just doing like swiping like Tinder whatever and just why are we doing all these other questions?

00;18;53;14 - 00;19;13;01
Speaker 3
And, you know, it's been through multiple iterations I mean, at one point it was in the App Store, it was in the app blaster. That was the wrong direction. And it took us a long time to really nail it. But we knew that the underlying idea there had substance and I think those were to me, those were two really big inflection points in terms of direction and knowing that we were on the right track.

00;19;13;26 - 00;19;31;08
Speaker 4
And yeah, I was actually going to say similar to what he said, the first real inflection point to me was with the discrete choice, and I don't want to take too much credit for that. It was actually a client that pushed us in that direction. They literally just came to me and they said, you know, in the US they've done this study, what do you think?

00;19;31;08 - 00;19;45;24
Speaker 4
And I looked at it and I was like, Oh, it's a contract. We can do a contract. And it wasn't a contract we'll get into the technical details. Obviously, I think that once corrected a client question in a conference, like in front of the entire audience of like 300 people, she's like, Oh, I like your contract. Well, it's not a contract.

00;19;46;05 - 00;20;00;11
Speaker 4
So anyways, leaving that aside, so first of all, anyone listening that's looking for general business advice, advice, don't correct clients in front of 300 people. Just go with it. Probably. She never, she never worked with us. She's like, I like your content. I want to work with you. I was like, It's not a contract. And then she never worked with us.

00;20;00;26 - 00;20;02;24
Speaker 4
So that was a good learning.

00;20;03;07 - 00;20;09;24
Speaker 1
We need to get. We need to get Michael, you know, at the exhibit, Bill's talking about how going to be a buyer you'd be.

00;20;10;00 - 00;20;10;11
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;20;10;21 - 00;20;27;02
Speaker 4
I was like, You're stupid, but I still want to work with you. Surprisingly, she didn't want to work with me, but it was leaving that aside. So I was like, Oh, it's a condo. We can do that. And it wasn't. And we sort of pivoted. We figured out what it was. We found a team of people who could do this, who had skills that we didn't at that point have.

00;20;27;02 - 00;20;46;11
Speaker 4
We now have those skills that at that point we didn't. But I guess the point, like the general positive advice beyond don't make people look stupid, that I'd say for people for their own careers is really listen to your clients because they'll push you in different directions. And even if it's something you can't do now, maybe you can learn how to do that because they're saying to you, that there's demand in the market and I don't know how to fill the demand.

00;20;46;11 - 00;20;57;15
Speaker 4
There isn't a company saying that we're experts in this. Could you become an expert in that? And we did with Discrete Choice, and it worked really well for us the takeaway.

00;20;58;27 - 00;21;26;19
Speaker 1
I'll make sure to keep that in the podcast because it's good advice. I mean, if we fast forward to where we are now, I've only been with the company for a year now, but we've managed to create or relaunch these new visual brands we've got a brand new look and feel which we're all really excited about internally. I wanted to kind of touch on, you know, the why behind that.

00;21;26;19 - 00;21;43;20
Speaker 1
So why do you think 20, 21 last year was a good year to kind of think through our brands and what they mean to us and how Upside and Digg insights as brands kind of visually speak to each other. Michael because you were involved in that, I'm going to, I'm going to let you start us off.

00;21;44;28 - 00;22;04;21
Speaker 4
And anyone else again, so free to jump in. So it all began a little bit organically. So we had created the Digg Insights website and on the I'm going to say around 2016 somewhere around then and like any website, it's sort of been built and then it had sort of more than Frankenstein itself into where it was back in 2020.

00;22;04;21 - 00;22;23;16
Speaker 4
What, it wasn't looking great, it wasn't functioning great and it didn't reflect the company that we'd become. So it didn't talk about a qualitative research, it didn't have a good integration between the good and upside and we wanted the two brands to be aligned. And then similarly the website was, was much newer, but we hadn't put a lot of content into it and it didn't relate to the big insights website.

00;22;23;16 - 00;22;41;05
Speaker 4
So we said All right, can we, can we rebuild the website? And so that's where it started. It's just like me just madly writing content, a bit aimlessly. And we were working with our internal team, the team that works on upside and trying to get them to like on the side build this website for us. And it wasn't going very well because they didn't have the resources.

00;22;41;21 - 00;22;55;01
Speaker 4
And what we also realized through that is we didn't have the resources to really talk about the brands in the right way. We had started sort of at the endpoint, which is the website as opposed to starting at the beginning, which is the brands. So we realized that we needed to take more of a strategic look at our brands.

00;22;55;01 - 00;23;09;23
Speaker 4
And that's when we I went to an agency friend of mine and he recommended craft and crew. Craft and crew in turn recommended focus lot and helped us on that sort of brand strategy piece. And we sort of backed into being where we needed to be. And then we started from the beginning and then ended up where we are.

00;23;14;16 - 00;23;46;15
Speaker 1
And what do these new brands like? How do you guys feel about them? What about them? Is how am I how am I trying to say this? Why do they look different? Like, do you feel like we've changed internally as as an organization? And we wanted to look in and to look different or sound different come 20, 21, 20, 22 or, you know, what was, why was a rebrand or relaunch of our brands kind of required.

00;23;47;20 - 00;24;16;27
Speaker 2
I I mean, I think Michael has kind of talked about some of the reasons behind why in terms of just, you know, obviously that we needed a time to update everything. But I mean, I think what I what I really like about the this, this refresh on both brands is I think it's a lot more representative of who we are as a company, not just in terms of what we do and that link between our, you know, our consultancy and our technology offering, but it really just represents the almost the people that work at Digg.

00;24;16;27 - 00;24;40;29
Speaker 2
Like it's it's really smartly put together. It talks about the, you know, the insights that we were there to try to uncover. It really highlights the strength of our team that we've been able to build up and who make us really make Digg an awesome company to work at. And and I think that just that comes through in just the design, the case studies, the content, the technology piece.

00;24;41;03 - 00;25;02;07
Speaker 2
I think just it just is a much more better representation who we are as a company. And I think when you look at this, you get that feel of, you know, this is a great company. I can tell it already by looking at it. It's probably full of amazingly smart people. And it is and and that work, I think is just it just translates really well on this new look awesome.

00;25;02;13 - 00;25;03;22
Speaker 1
Anything to add dominion?

00;25;04;29 - 00;25;26;23
Speaker 3
I I mean I mean, from my point of view, I think it was really we struggled a long time with relating the brands, building Digg and upside. And it's like every company, you know, there's a lot of companies in our space that have gone through the complexities around how you deal with the tech side of your business. And the reality is that like things have history, right?

00;25;26;23 - 00;25;48;22
Speaker 3
And so, you know, the reason why upside was first a separate brand was because we wanted it to be an app in the App Store. I mean, that was the, the original the origin of that was about requirements from an app store point of view. And so I think that it evolved from that. And then you know, how you build equity in something and you walk away from it.

00;25;48;22 - 00;26;18;09
Speaker 3
And, and so I think it forced like like a lot of things. It forced us to even though the end point is tangible and it's these it's great new brands and great, you know, great new websites, the process of getting there had as much value as the as the end because we finally have more clarity on how the brands relate to each other and and what they mean and, you know, Digg is the company upside as a product.

00;26;18;12 - 00;26;35;01
Speaker 3
I mean, all of those things that seem obvious once you get there. And I think that's when, you know, you've got the answer is it seems obvious but wasn't obvious in the beginning. And so I think I think that's a lot of what this process brought and that's why I'm really happy with the end to Penn State.

00;26;37;02 - 00;26;54;12
Speaker 1
Do you think that's such an important point? Because you're right, it does feel way more obvious the way that we talk about both now. And I remember when we started the project we were trying to figure out like, is it one website, is it two websites? Like How do we want to approach this? So that's a great point.

00;26;54;23 - 00;26;55;20
Speaker 1
Anything from you, Dawn.

00;26;57;15 - 00;27;12;02
Speaker 3
I much that I agree with everything the guys have said that you said there I think also we I had an old hoodie with the old logo on and it was really threadbare and I needed a new hoodies. So now I've got a cool new.

00;27;12;03 - 00;27;45;26
Speaker 1
Sweatshirt oh yeah. For anyone listening, Dom's wearing our new swag. We've got a brand new sweater OK, we're about to wrap up. I just have one more question for you guys. So in terms of, you know, we talked about the new brands being more representative of where we're going as an organization and the people that that currently work with Dig, if we look into the future, do any of you have any sort of educated guesses about what we're going to see in the next few years within the industry?

00;27;47;12 - 00;27;54;23
Speaker 1
Ian, why don't we start with you from a fast research perspective. What do you expect to see a little bit more of within that space?

00;27;56;01 - 00;28;41;18
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think I think what's interesting is this this whole idea of DIY versus automated and then this continues as the theme, which is that, you know, a lot of companies have come into our space like last count on Insight platforms dot com. I think it was over 1200 like what, over the 1200 mark in terms of DIY platforms of using air quotes, which doesn't make sense on the radio with air quotes and the reality well you know, in case you also were a podcast, in case you were in case you didn't know, I'm old, in case there is any confusion.

00;28;42;15 - 00;28;46;01
Speaker 1
Paul tried to make that clear earlier. So you got to say.

00;28;46;24 - 00;29;26;04
Speaker 3
Well, thank you for faxing me the agenda, by the way. So yeah, so I think, you know, the DIY versus automated and what that really means is, you know, automated has a lot of problems around flexibility. Which is exactly what people you know, the reason one of the reasons why why Digg was so successful immediately was because we were able to be more flexible that a lot of the large companies that wanted to scale methodologies and the same thing is now happened in the DIY space or the automated space where people don't want fixed methodologies that they that are inflexible all that are easily scalable for the platform, but not meeting the need of the

00;29;26;04 - 00;29;55;23
Speaker 3
individual company. So that doesn't really fully you need it on the other side of the spectrum. You know, DIY needs a lot of service and a lot of the companies that have come into the space were tech first. They don't they're not researchers, they don't have research staff they have to build the research stuff that I think, you know, we built our platform in the way that we're servicing our platform in a very conscious way, which is that we are, you know, DIY with an automated capability.

00;29;55;23 - 00;30;24;13
Speaker 3
We are we are market researchers servicing a platform. We don't fall victim to either one of those those traps. And I think that's the future. I think it's down the middle. It's you. We can automate your methodology that suits your specific need, and you can get that serviced by the market researchers who know how to help you. And so I think that I think I think that's the I think we're the future may love it.

00;30;25;16 - 00;30;49;03
Speaker 1
I mean, I tend to agree with you. What about Dom Paul? Michael any anything to say about like consulting? Because it sounds like what Ian is saying is that, you know, maybe there is going to be just more, oh, my God, am I about to say the word synergy? Maybe there's going to be more synergy or more like working together from a consulting versus technology perspective.

00;30;49;03 - 00;30;51;25
Speaker 1
They're not going to be so siloed. Would you guys agree with that?

00;30;53;18 - 00;31;10;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, listen, just to kind of build on what Ian was saying about automation, I think there's you know, there is to me, there is there's a couple of key things that in terms of that evolution of the industry that's happening over the next couple of years, and automation is obviously one part of it. But it's not just so much automation in terms of finding efficiencies or synergies.

00;31;11;04 - 00;31;33;04
Speaker 2
It's also automation in a sense of, you know, access to data you know, people are inundated with data, the access to information and consolidating that information and trying to drive insights out of it, even access to people to be able to actually do the work. I mean, right now we're in that area where it's so hard to even find talent to actually hire.

00;31;33;04 - 00;31;51;19
Speaker 2
Now, automation is going to become even more important because we just we just don't have the people actually execute the work. And so automation overall for our industry, it's going to be a mix of being more efficient and getting things done quicker but also in a sense, trying to drive and understand insights out of the accumulation of so many different data points.

00;31;51;19 - 00;32;25;11
Speaker 2
And I think that's where we also see the consulting playing a significant role is trying to help, you know, companies understand and make sense of all this information or what is it actually saying? How is it actually going to drive choice for the consumer? How do we actually think something from, you know, so when thinking about an idea all the way to what happens after that product is launched and showing that ROI and I do think there's a role for both the consulting side and obviously our tech side, not just in terms of what you was talking about for automation and being able to service our clients on our platform.

00;32;25;24 - 00;32;32;05
Speaker 2
But just to even make sense of the amount of data that our clients are going to just be exposed to over the next several years.

00;32;37;01 - 00;32;38;11
Speaker 1
Anything to add, Michael?

00;32;38;12 - 00;33;07;16
Speaker 3
Dom I would echo what all the others saying about the importance of consulting of those 1200 platforms that you mentioned. So many of them are just about going faster and cheaper. And I think that that third leg of quality, like doing it better, often gets lost without the consulting. And I think the consulting is so integral to what we do, whether we're doing the projects fully for our clients or we're helping clients or using the platform.

00;33;07;26 - 00;33;23;04
Speaker 3
And I think the best tools in the world, if you don't know how to use them, like I can go to Home Depot after work today and buy every woodworking tool that sell. I wouldn't be able to build a bookshelf, you know, but so you need people who know how to use the tools to actually and to find out what is the right answer.

00;33;23;04 - 00;33;37;10
Speaker 3
Because honestly, these tools, without the consulting, you can make some terrible wrong decisions. So I think companies that don't want the consulting don't want the services because they're trying to get some tech valuation. I think that's a very short sighted view of things.

00;33;38;19 - 00;34;06;27
Speaker 4
The other very real challenge is just as Paul said, that we struggle to hire, and every consultant who struggles to hire our clients is struggling to hire so they don't have an excess of people who can run these studies. They are themselves so strapped that they really do need answers. And I think that's one of the ways that if you think we're competing against 1200 tech platforms, one of the ways in which we're competing is by being more flexible, of course, as you said, but also being more focused on delivering those answers as opposed to just delivering a tool, delivering the answers that the clients use.

00;34;09;23 - 00;34;38;06
Speaker 1
Thanks so much guys. This has been so fun for me. I mean, I think it's always great to hear about where a business kind of comes from or the roots of business. But I mean I, I know I'm only speaking for myself, but it's a, it's a great place to work, so it's a really cool experience. You get to sit with the four founders of the business and learn about kind of how it all began, even if that includes a puppy taking a dump in the middle of your basement.

00;34;38;06 - 00;34;45;14
Speaker 1
Michael So thanks so much. I will wrap it up here and tune in to dig in next week.