00;00;06;23 - 00;00;21;03
Speaker 1
Hi. Welcome to Dig in the podcast brought to you by Digg Insights. Every week we interview founders, marketers and researchers from innovative brands to learn how they're approaching their role and their category in a clever way.

00;00;22;19 - 00;00;45;13
Speaker 2
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Dig in the podcast about all things marketing and insights. My name is Paul Gaudet, co-founder and CEO of Digg Insights, filling in for Megan, who is on a much needed vacation. And I'm excited to be joined today by Gail Rozier, managing partner at Beringer Capital, a private equity company that actually purchased a majority stake in Digg Insights and is now our financial partner.

00;00;45;21 - 00;00;46;16
Speaker 2
So Gil, welcome.

00;00;46;16 - 00;00;50;14
Speaker 3
To the podcast. For those who thank you for.

00;00;52;16 - 00;01;17;12
Speaker 2
Well, for those who may not know, up until this past September, Digg insights have actually been a fully bootstrapped organization. Four of us started this company back in 2010 and now we have over 200 employees across Canada, US and the UK. And as we start to think about our future and how to secure the future of the company, the four founders decided the time was right to really bring an outside expertize and capital to help scale the company.

00;01;17;13 - 00;01;24;22
Speaker 2
And after an extensive search, we found the right partners in Beringer Capital and are very excited about what this partnership means. And Gil.

00;01;25;01 - 00;01;26;03
Speaker 3
Thought it'd be great to have.

00;01;26;03 - 00;01;46;22
Speaker 2
You on not only to discuss this new partnership between Digg and Badger, but also give listeners an idea of what private equity even is, why private equity has been active in the insight space, and really what this partnership between our company means for the future of Digg. But why don't we start just provide our listeners a brief background on you and also an introduction to Barrenjoey Capital.

00;01;46;27 - 00;02;17;11
Speaker 3
It sounds great. Thanks, Paul. Great. Great to be here with everyone. My name is Gillers here. I'm a partner at Beringer Capital. Paul, as you said, by background, I'm a lawyer by training, although I never really formally practiced. I got interested in business during the dot com era when I'd just graduated law school, and there were so many interesting things happening in the Internet and in the world of business.

00;02;17;11 - 00;02;50;22
Speaker 3
There was so much change going on and I felt like I was stuck in this time capsule from the past, reading law books and citing cases from decades ago. And and so I made a shift into the business world through strategy consulting. And I joined a firm that most people probably have heard about called McKinsey and Company. And and did strategy consulting in different industries, CPG, media and in particular.

00;02;51;12 - 00;03;17;28
Speaker 3
We used to support a lot of private equity funds when they were doing a transaction. McKinsey would support them doing the due diligence. Is this a good company? Is this a good market, etc.? And that really lit a flame under me because I thought it was so interesting how these funds invest in these companies and need to understand what they do and how to improve them and what the risks are.

00;03;18;09 - 00;03;44;24
Speaker 3
It was a very interesting kind of intellectual exercise, and so I spent between McKinsey and another firm that I, a global boutique called Amara, which I managed the US office of for several years, probably the plurality of my career advising private equity funds and corporates. When they were doing transactions on the company, they were buying the opportunity, the market, the risk, etc..

00;03;45;13 - 00;04;11;07
Speaker 3
And then I met up with the folks at Beringer who as you know, is a Toronto based Canadian fund. Beringer operates it as a sector specialist fund, and we can talk more about what that means. But really what it means is we only invest in certain sectors. And for us that is the convergence of information, media and marketing.

00;04;11;17 - 00;04;45;19
Speaker 3
That's what we know. The founders of Beringer were entrepreneurs like yourself. Paul started businesses in the marketing services world, sold those businesses to financial institutions and big, big conglomerates, and then wanted to help other investor a of other entrepreneurs by raising funds, a pool of capital to invest in those companies with the idea that as as former operators and entrepreneurs we can add value and help those those founders take their business to the next level.

00;04;46;02 - 00;05;14;17
Speaker 3
And so that's how Beringer started. And Beringer has been in the market for about 20 years, investing in in different companies in the information media marketing services world. I joined Beringer in 2016 and, and helped them really launch the New York office or home based. And so that's that's a little bit of the background of myself and how I joined Beringer and what founders about.

00;05;15;05 - 00;05;33;00
Speaker 2
You know, when we first met, we actually were having conversations with many different private equity companies. And I remember meeting you while you were virtual. It was just while you were based in New York hitting given us some hard hitting questions. And the fact that you're a lawyer now makes complete sense as to how I can appreciate that.

00;05;33;08 - 00;05;45;14
Speaker 3
I think it was a deposition. I thought they were like this friendly, interesting question. I really felt like you were on the witness stand. It was a little bit you know, it's interesting, you kind of.

00;05;45;16 - 00;06;06;03
Speaker 2
You kind of touched on it a bit about how, you know, these different private equity companies and raise funds and invest in companies and help them to grow. But at the core of it, like, you know, just maybe give people an insight as to what private equity even is and maybe even just think what's the big difference between like private equity and, say, venture capital, which is kind of the terms that people are familiar with in the financial space.

00;06;06;19 - 00;06;29;11
Speaker 3
Sure. People have a character picture in their mind of what a private equity fund is from the, you know, Mitt Romney, Bain Capital. You know, we're guys that go in by companies, strip them out, cut the costs, pillaged there, and then try to make a profit on it. And certainly there are some firms that are known for doing that.

00;06;29;11 - 00;07;02;22
Speaker 3
But to take a step back, private equity is really an asset class just like any other asset class bonds, mutual funds, stocks, it's an asset class. It means that people invest in private equity, bring their capital to bear. The difference between, say, buying investing in a private equity fund, if you are an investor or investing in stocks, is that when you invest in a private equity fund, it's a it's a closed fund, which means it's not traded on the open market.

00;07;02;22 - 00;07;34;00
Speaker 3
You're giving your capital to a group of fund managers. I think myself and my partners and we invest in private companies, not public companies, private companies and help those companies improve, grow, become more profitable so that we're in a position to sell them down the line. However many years out, usually typical private equity timeframe is somewhere between three and nine years, depending on the industry.

00;07;35;07 - 00;08;19;17
Speaker 3
Sell them at a profit and return capital back to investors. That's essentially what it is. It's a private money asset class. The difference between private equity and, say, venture funds, venture capital is and I'm generalizing here, but venture capital tends to support more startup companies, companies that don't have a long history of profitability track record. They're trying to find the next Uber Facebook, you know, pick your unicorn du your right and they will typically make a lot of small bets in a wide variety of companies.

00;08;19;28 - 00;08;34;14
Speaker 3
And the idea is to hit one big one and they're pretty hands off. The founder typically controls all those businesses. They're just, you know, putting putting bets on a roulette wheel, if you will. Yeah. Should give them more credit than that. But why?

00;08;37;06 - 00;09;01;14
Speaker 2
But I get it. I mean, with us. I mean, so, you know, just in private equity in general, from what I'm hearing from you is that private equity companies tend to look for established, you know, companies that maybe they're profitable or see there's some path to profitability that you can invest someone else's, whether it's an institutional investors money into buying a company, growing that company and selling it, make a profit.

00;09;01;16 - 00;09;27;16
Speaker 3
That's the big difference tends to be in the maturity of the company and the profitability and track record. I would call the companies that we invest in, like dig more, you know, investor investor friendly assets in that they are profitable. You can count on them. They're not going to go away tomorrow. Like some of these private equity funds that are burning through cash.

00;09;27;16 - 00;09;32;21
Speaker 3
And so they attract the types of investors that want to invest in private companies like that.

00;09;32;29 - 00;09;49;27
Speaker 2
And I think you you mentioned it earlier, too, and I think there's you know, there's definitely people who hear private equity and they hear, oh, my gosh, so someone's going to take over or they're going to, you know, take over this company. They're going to strip it down. Really focused on margin optimization and try to sell it and make some money on it.

00;09;50;27 - 00;10;14;03
Speaker 2
But from what we've been seeing in at least, you know, from my perspective and even having conversations with different private equity firms, especially in the Internet space, it is really around growth opportunities. And I think, you know, as we started seeing more private equity come into the insight space, we saw a lot of our other suppliers partner as competitors taking on a private equity partner.

00;10;14;03 - 00;10;26;23
Speaker 2
And it feels like there's a lot of attention going on in private equity with respect to the inside space. And why do you think that there is so much interest in private equity around insights in general?

00;10;26;23 - 00;10;52;25
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think you're right. First of all, your characterization of private equity being more growth and value creation oriented than a lot of people understand that that is, you definitely get the pillaging and cost cutting. Those tend to be big old line companies, you know, like like staples back in the day, Cisco, you know, where there were there were these fat companies and private equity.

00;10;53;21 - 00;11;23;07
Speaker 3
When you're investing in smaller, more growth oriented companies like Digg, for example, our job as investors is to help further and accelerate that that that growth journey. And so the attention that we bring is how can we support that? How can we bring our skills, knowledge, experience, capital to make investments for growth, to support the management teams, to to come up with new strategies, new business lines, and support the innovation of the company.

00;11;23;17 - 00;11;56;08
Speaker 3
So it does in our part of the market tends to be more kind of future growth oriented. You asked about why private equity is interested in insights? Well, the insights industry is a very established industry. And so there is a market there of large companies that rely on insights providers as essential vendors to their own strategies. Think about some of your clients, you know, big CPG, fund companies, retailers, etc..

00;11;56;22 - 00;12;15;07
Speaker 3
So it's not like somebody came up with some idea around insights yesterday and is spinning up a new venture. So there's an established need. It's a large industry, right? Billions and billions and billions of dollars globally being spent by forecasts that.

00;12;15;07 - 00;12;17;18
Speaker 2
Forecast to be $100 billion by the end of next year.

00;12;18;07 - 00;12;50;02
Speaker 3
So it can support a lot of demand and a lot of growth in the industry. And I think there has been some renewed insights, particularly in the last five, five, six years. And and for us, the way we see it, there's a couple of things. Number one, we saw a big shift in the marketing world from brand awareness brands being focused more on their awareness and the aura of their brand to what is the experience of them.

00;12;51;13 - 00;12;51;24
Speaker 2
Right.

00;12;52;05 - 00;13;11;21
Speaker 3
And if you think about any product from airlines to water, take airlines, for example, right? You go on Air Canada or Porter Airlines, you have an experience on the seat, you know, in the cabin. Right. How's the food as the server? But you also have an experience on your phone if the flight get delayed right. And am I able to rebook quickly?

00;13;11;21 - 00;13;37;14
Speaker 3
Am I getting notifications when I go online to buy a ticket? Is it easy? Is it seamless to remember who I am? Do they know that I'm from the US and not from Brazil? Right. All of these things have created a new a new paradigm around the customer experience. And so brands have had to understand in the last five, six years what is the experience of their brand?

00;13;37;14 - 00;14;00;19
Speaker 3
And it goes beyond the product itself. And I think insights has become a very important aspect of that. And then you look at companies like Qualtrics, right, which are about defining and quantifying the experience across a broad range of touchpoints to employees, to customers, to stakeholders. And so all of this has really shifted attention on the insights category.

00;14;00;19 - 00;14;36;17
Speaker 3
And then you add to this just COVID and the change in consumer behavior. And I mean, it's a massive, massive shift. And so not only has that change been accelerated, particularly online, but companies are understanding that consumers are using their products in different ways, have different sensibilities, different needs. They're working at home. Right. So all of these things mean that there's a real opportunity for brands to get to know their customers again.

00;14;37;10 - 00;14;49;24
Speaker 3
And and their needs again. And what what those needs are going to be in the future. And insights is just a fundamental way to for brands to get their heads around around that. And and a.

00;14;49;24 - 00;15;00;06
Speaker 2
Side note side note for those listening that Porter Airlines is actually a small commission that flies into Toronto, which is a fantastic airline. But in case you're not familiar with Porter, Airlines love Porter.

00;15;00;09 - 00;15;00;27
Speaker 3
It shut out the.

00;15;03;16 - 00;15;29;08
Speaker 2
And I think you know you know when I was looking at some of the metrics around the growth opportunities for insights in general, I think, you know, when we saw a, you know, 28 during COVID the period of 2019 to 2020, it really was, I think, a turning point for the insights space where, you know, platform based, DIY technology or sound more technology based solutions were really growing quite quickly.

00;15;29;08 - 00;15;50;06
Speaker 2
And the more established, you know, research market, research industry, our providers were actually, you know, it's a negative growth, a decline of 5%. And as they look at the future over the next few years, where the growth of the insights space is really coming, it is coming much more from a digital space. And I know you talked about it at the beginning.

00;15;50;13 - 00;16;10;05
Speaker 2
You have sector expertize and it's definitely in that digital transformation. And so, you know, we thought about the opportunity even to partner with with Digg. What was it about us that you thought, yeah, you know what, there's something here that we think as a, as an organization we could get behind and help really grow this company. Yeah.

00;16;10;17 - 00;16;52;17
Speaker 3
So back to Berenger and in our our style of investing. So I mentioned earlier that we're sector focused investors, but within the sectors that we that we know and love information, media and marketing, we also look for themes. And one of the major themes that we look at is around digital transformation. And everyone understands that today. If you are not on the forefront of transforming your business to be more digitally centered in the way that you're offering products and services to your company, you're going to lose out to someone who is disrupting it.

00;16;53;11 - 00;16;59;00
Speaker 2
And what do you when you say that digitally focused or digitally centered, what do you what do you kind of what do you mean? You know, if there's a company, it's like.

00;16;59;11 - 00;17;30;11
Speaker 3
Oh, you using the power of data, digital tools, digital business models to enhance your customers experience and the value that they're receiving from their product. I'll give you a perfect example. We used to own a well-known media company in the marketing sector called Avid, and when we acquired it, it was a very kind of print centric in the way that they were thinking about.

00;17;30;11 - 00;17;53;20
Speaker 3
They thought of themselves as magazine publishers, right? Long form content. That's not how the traditional magazines. Right, exactly. Even if it was digital and even if it was digital, it was it kind of felt like a magazine. Right. Right. And they didn't have any data on who was looking at their publication. They didn't have any digital subscriptions or products.

00;17;53;20 - 00;18;25;21
Speaker 3
Right. They just ported either magazine or they put it that same content onto a pixelated screen. Right. Digital transformation in that example looks like, hey, how, how we using the power of video to tell stories about how we're using short form content that's more mobile friendly? Again, back to the phone example. How are we creating new digital products like digital education that you can that you can log into and take courses in chunk pieces, right?

00;18;26;00 - 00;18;51;07
Speaker 3
So really transforming your products and services using the power of all these digital tools to enhance the customer experience. And when we look at a company like Digg and you think about traditional market research, you know, the focus groups, the asking, you know, the panels where you ask people a million questions and then, you know, organize the studies and take all this time to generate the answers back.

00;18;51;07 - 00;19;12;13
Speaker 3
Right. And you think about it's really disruptive in that way, not only in the front end experience where a lot of the studies that you're using are more mobile focused, more digital, more visual, right, where consumers can can get a quick experience to think about a question. Right? It's like A or B, ab ab almost like a tender experience.

00;19;12;22 - 00;19;52;00
Speaker 3
But on the back end, the way that you're designing these studies to get speed to insight much more rapidly because of the way you're understanding the data, the data science that underpins it, that to us is transformative technology in a transformative business model. And our view is that the industry is is needing that and wanting that. And if we can scale that together as partners, then that's not only a big opportunity for for Digg, but I think it's a big opportunity for the whole industry and we can really spearhead that, that digital transformation in this massive industry of insights.

00;19;52;12 - 00;20;14;19
Speaker 2
There's, you know, there's I think there's a lot of discussion around insights being, you know, there is the technology solutions and then there's the service solutions. And, you know, as a company like ours who started off as a traditional insights consultancy that's built its own technology, we have both. And so we do classify ourselves as a tech enabled company.

00;20;14;26 - 00;20;36;02
Speaker 2
And, you know, what that means is that we are leveraging technology to deliver insights to our clients, and we're servicing our clients with the technology that we build. And, you know, for you in the way you think about insights and the growth of insights, is there a difference for you in terms of opportunity between just a sole provider and maybe a more tech enabled company?

00;20;36;16 - 00;21;04;28
Speaker 3
For sure. And I think I think this category of tech enabled is a kind of interesting development that's occurred over the years because the world used to be divided into software and services and where meant, you know, Adobe Qualtrics, you know, sat in the cloud has nobody touches it right it's delivered to you and then services man you know a bunch of people grinding things out.

00;21;05;27 - 00;21;42;18
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's right. And now because the the technology has become so much more accessible and scalable, you can have this amazing, really, really confluence of the two where you can where you can serve clients with that service layer that they need. Most clients need services, right? They're not ready to take the whole thing on themselves, but do it in a way that is more efficient, more effective for them and for you using the power of technology.

00;21;42;18 - 00;21;59;27
Speaker 3
And that that's what you've really brought together and dig in. We see this is this model, this this idea of tech enabled services in a lot of industries and a lot of like niches of the information marketing media, media ecosystem. And I think it's really where the world has gone.

00;22;00;19 - 00;22;28;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I just, you know, it gives it is to me very impressive to see the growth of the company that we've had to date, leveraging both our technology and our, you know, client service talent and being able to combine those things and deliver, to your point, the speed of insights to clients, their quality of insights, and making sure there's a level of expertize to those insights and really differentiating ourselves versus others by having that combination of of services and technology.

00;22;28;28 - 00;23;05;03
Speaker 2
And I think, you know, when we went on this journey of how, you know, are we going to be able to actually bring in a partner that values that it was? I think it's surprising to see how many firms did value the combination of services and technology and, you know, I think maybe if this was a few years ago where maybe firms were fairly new to insights that we're looking at technology as a pure is there you know recurring revenue is the SAS type business model and I getting in are multiple and and focused on that versus services which tended to be much more okay well you know is the contracts in some way over

00;23;05;03 - 00;23;26;19
Speaker 2
current revenue but a very different business model. I think now private equity is looking at insights and saying now there's there is something here and this idea of combination of of services and technology and it's something I think we were a little bit more surprised to see, but happy to see as well. And I think firms like Venture capital recognize the opportunity with more of a tech enabled offering.

00;23;26;21 - 00;24;03;15
Speaker 3
Look, almost like every industry is becoming more technologically driven, why shouldn't the services industry for sure technologically driven? You know, I think part of this digital transformation story that I was alluding to earlier in your dig is just a great illustration of of of the digital transformation of services business, bringing the power of technology to augment and improve the experience and product that your customer that you're offering your customers.

00;24;04;01 - 00;24;10;27
Speaker 2
Yeah. Okay. So now that Beringer is a partner of Digg and so you know, what that means is basically.

00;24;11;18 - 00;24;17;05
Speaker 3
Cut all the yeah. We were cutting. Yeah, we're gone. No, I'm just now now.

00;24;17;07 - 00;24;35;22
Speaker 2
Our idea is 100% full time podcasts. No, I mean, so you know, the, the owners of the company are the owners of the company. The management team is still the management team. You know, we bring on a private equity partner. They are investing, they're taking they're buying into a company with the goal of being able to help grow it.

00;24;35;29 - 00;24;51;02
Speaker 2
And maybe you can kind of talk to, you know, this partnership and see where we are today. Does Berenger foresee contributing to the growth of our company so that we get to a stage where we are able to scale it? We are secure in the future of the company.

00;24;51;10 - 00;25;21;14
Speaker 3
Yeah, we are investors. We're not managers. So Paul, you and your team and anybody any any team, any, any group, any founders has taken on capital from an investor needs to understand that there are the people that are running the company day to day, making the decisions right, dealing with the customers. And there are and there's a role for the investors in that.

00;25;22;00 - 00;26;01;09
Speaker 3
And for us, what that means is how can we support Dig and Dig team to grow their business, improve and enhance their product, continue to differentiate in the marketplace so that from our standpoint, we can create a more valuable company down the road. And that means a couple of things. Number one, now, Paul, as you maybe already experienced you and your partners running the business before, and there's an old expression, heavy lies, the head that wears the crown.

00;26;01;24 - 00;26;29;24
Speaker 3
You know, it's a big responsibility. But now we share that responsibility with you. Right. And so whether that is bringing to bear expertize, you know, in areas where maybe maybe they didn't have that expertize or that know how or, you know, as a bootstrap company had to just kind of wing it or do the best we can now bring that expertize because we've done it before in other companies.

00;26;29;24 - 00;26;57;02
Speaker 3
The other aspect of that is capital. Certain initiatives take money. It takes money to build something, right? And when you're bootstrapped, oh boy, I got to choose between payroll and hiring somebody or making an investment. Right? Sure. So so now we can bring that capital to supercharge and accelerate some of those investments. And then the other area is just being a partner.

00;26;57;10 - 00;27;23;12
Speaker 3
You know, and and making sure that that we are both being a partner. If you think about it, what is a partner? Partner is mutual support, but it's also mutual accountability. And we're accountable to dig to bring the best of Barringer, make sure that you guys are getting value out of it and you're accountable to us to drive these initiatives to get the growth to serve your clients.

00;27;23;26 - 00;27;47;20
Speaker 3
And that partnership makes all of us all of a stronger and yeah, you know, we had, for example, Paul, do you remember a great workshop we did in Toronto where we started to strategize about the future bring and you know, where are there opportunities or even other acquisitions we could make in the industry bring into the family right.

00;27;47;20 - 00;28;01;21
Speaker 3
So having having now not only your partners that are working in the business and employees, but a broader group that's working outside and can see some of the bigger picture is only going to help to to further those things.

00;28;02;08 - 00;28;16;29
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think, you know, it's funny because when even when we started this process, people would ask, you know, why are you even considering in private equity? I think to all of those points you just raised, we were a fully bootstrapped company. So a lot of the things that we were doing took a lot of additional risk.

00;28;17;06 - 00;28;36;14
Speaker 2
You know, we were fairly conservative because we're paying for payroll. We have people employed and we're reinvesting in the business. But, you know, taking on somebody that has the expertize and growing a business like ours beyond where we've taken it. So we only know what we know. So bring on somebody that has expertize in growing and scaling businesses, having access to additional capital.

00;28;36;14 - 00;28;54;05
Speaker 2
Should we see something out there that we think might make a great fit with? They can, you know, add on into the to the company, whether it's a technology solution or a servicing offering or something that we don't operate now. But to enhance our total offering is, again, something that we we've never done before, but we're excited about looking into and having a partner that can actually help us do that.

00;28;54;05 - 00;29;18;21
Speaker 2
And then I think to your last point, that partnership perspective, I think the one of the reasons for us why we were so excited about working with you and your team at Barringer was that, you know, these, you know, you bring a different perspective. These are entrepreneurs, operators or people who have a lot of industry knowledge. It's not typical finance people who just kind of, you know, have that, you know, look at your books and say, okay, we're just doing that.

00;29;18;21 - 00;29;46;29
Speaker 2
The finance perspective, it's people who are really interested in seeing how they can take something like dig in this amazing space and really grow it to be something special and unique. And I think for us that was extremely valuable and also I think validating and seeing the response that we got to actually even seeking a partnership. So very, very fortunate to be able to to partner with Pangea and you know, just obviously really excited about the future.

00;29;46;29 - 00;29;59;21
Speaker 2
And I do appreciate you even coming on here. Yeah. Being a voice for banter and discussing what the partnership means for both us and you. And I'm excited to see what the future brings. So thank you. Extremely good, I think.

00;29;59;21 - 00;30;24;21
Speaker 3
Paul, just one other note. Is that so important that we think so seriously as a big measure of our success is the success not only of of the Digg founders but of the broader Dig team and creating opportunities for the broader Digg team to grow in this bigger platform. Great point. We're continuing to bootstrap it. You know, you can only take that.

00;30;24;21 - 00;30;44;23
Speaker 3
So far and now, you know, so great to meet some of the other team members in Toronto the other day. Like all of those people are going to have more opportunity, right? Career opportunity, the satisfaction, monetary opportunity right now that really gets us excited. How how can we create value for all stakeholders here?

00;30;44;23 - 00;30;57;11
Speaker 2
Yeah, and that's a great point and thanks for for mentioning it. So yeah, you know, it's exciting to see what the future holds. Thanks, Gill, for joining us here on Dig In and next episode. I'm sure Megan will be back from her much needed vacation, so thanks so much.

00;30;57;11 - 00;30;59;22
Speaker 3
We had a real professional asking the questions.

00;30;59;23 - 00;31;05;04
Speaker 2
Not exactly amateur hour is over.

00;31;05;08 - 00;31;13;08
Speaker 3
And powers over. Thanks for your pleasure to be with you.

00;31;13;08 - 00;31;20;06
Speaker 1
Thanks for tuning in this week. Find us on LinkedIn at Digg Insights and don't forget to hit subscribe for a weekly dose of fresh content.