00;00;06;23 - 00;00;34;17
Meagan
Hi. Welcome to Dig In the podcast brought to you by Dig Insights. Every week we interview founders, marketers and researchers, from innovative brands to learn how they're approaching their role and their category in a clever way. Hello. Welcome back to this week's episode of Dig In podcast hosted by Dig Insights. My name is Meagan, and today we are joined by Patricia, who's our EVP of Qualitative Research.

00;00;34;20 - 00;00;44;02
Meagan
We were both very fascinated by our guest today, Jo Lepore. She's the global foresight director at McDonald's. Jo, how are you doing?

00;00;44;05 - 00;00;48;24
Jo
I'm fabulous. Thank you so much for the opportunity to come on your awesome show.

00;00;48;27 - 00;00;59;01
Meagan
Oh, thank you for joining us. And I love that you're fabulous. We've now got 115 on that on a Friday afternoon. So I appreciate it.

00;00;59;03 - 00;01;05;02
Jo
I really like it when people say like, you know, when you ask them, how are you? And they say, I am incredible. I kind of love that.

00;01;05;03 - 00;01;06;29
Meagan
I'm like, wow, positive.

00;01;07;02 - 00;01;12;16
Jo
Let's go with that. And then, you know, if it goes down, it goes down. But we'll try to stay up there.

00;01;12;18 - 00;01;14;10
Meagan
And Patti, how are you doing?

00;01;14;12 - 00;01;29;27
Patricia
I'm good. Thanks for letting me kind of just, you know, join in and get to ask you. Really crushed because I wanted to ask Joe a million questions. So now now I get to do that. I it's easy, right? Yeah.

00;01;30;00 - 00;01;31;04
Jo
Firm at me.

00;01;31;07 - 00;02;02;06
Meagan
Yeah. I've been really looking forward to this because we've never spoken to anyone in the foresight space on the podcast before. I think it's such an interesting space as someone who's, you know, day in and day out. I'm in marketing for the business. I don't work with clients on, you know, quantitative or qualitative or foresight projects. But so my, my understanding of what foresight is, is probably much more limited than someone like Patricia.

00;02;02;08 - 00;02;22;06
Meagan
But I do want to say that sort of dive into the specifics of like the best practices like where we're at now with that. Before we do that, though, I would love to get a sense or give the listeners a sense of your background and how you kind of ended up here, if you don't mind going in, going into a bit of specifics.

00;02;22;09 - 00;02;45;05
Jo
Yeah, happy to. And it's a little bit of an unconventional path, if I'm honest. However, I would say with confidence that most people who end up in foresight, particularly corporate foresight, have followed a very similar unconventional path to it. Often when you tell people that you do foresight for a living, they well, they don't know what it is or they don't have any clue of how you would get into it.

00;02;45;05 - 00;03;13;06
Jo
So it's a very common starting point. So I actually am a well, I still consider myself a market. I did marketing for about ten years. This is, as you may be able to tell from the accent, anyone listening in Australia. And I mean, I kind of ended up in marketing not really knowing what I wanted to do. I just started doing it, fell in love with it, went down that path and then after about a decade thought I want to try something similar but different.

00;03;13;06 - 00;03;45;24
Jo
So I went into insights and I did that for a couple of years before I then just naturally started to do foresight. And when I say that, I mean I was looking at innovation territories and where we could take some of our brands and just naturally started looking at trends, creating demand or innovation spaces, pulling in projections of the future, speaking to people from outside of our industry and our categories, and pulling in, you know, their perspective of what was to come so that we could future proof or strengthen the plans of our business at the time.

00;03;45;27 - 00;04;05;00
Jo
And I didn't realize that, but I was doing a part of foresight. And so then when I started to share this back with the business more and more, I'm like, Check this out. Check out this trend report. Let's do some scenario planning. Let's have a look at how consumer behaviors are evolving. After a while, I think they just kind of looked at me.

00;04;05;00 - 00;04;28;16
Jo
And when you want to know what you're doing, let's just get you to do foresight. So I got offered the opportunity to lead and create foresight for Mars Wrigley, which is why I moved to the States to be able to do that. And then I would say absolutely with confidence that once I got into force, I didn't realize just how much bigger it was than what I had known it to be before.

00;04;28;18 - 00;04;40;01
Jo
And that's when I went really deep into learning the foresight, practice, the tools, the methodologies, and really kind of, you know, perfecting my craft, if you will.

00;04;40;03 - 00;05;02;16
Meagan
Yeah, that's so interesting. Just in terms of like, I love what you said about you're a marketer by trade and you'd still consider yourself to be a marketer. What kind of and you know, you you are a marketer. You're just sort of specializing in one sense of it. But you said you wanted to try something different. Like did were you exposed to consumer insights work and you thought maybe I'd be better at this?

00;05;02;16 - 00;05;11;15
Meagan
Or did you find it more interesting? Like what made you make that sort of transition from brand marketing to insight? Yeah, it was.

00;05;11;18 - 00;05;44;29
Jo
It was a very scary transition, to be honest. And actually so I started off in marketing. I did marketing for three different categories as well. So I got really great exposure. I did everything from, you know, coordinating events through to like product management, managing 14 empty projects at one point communications and winning a Colin's award for comms brand marketing through your planning, I mean, I kind of like stretched myself to all of the possible arenas of marketing.

00;05;44;29 - 00;06;18;28
Jo
So I felt like I had tried my hand at every part of it. And the next natural step was, okay, you just keep moving up. Right? So you just kind of go from manager to senior manager to director to VP. And I was following that path because I felt like that was what I was supposed to do. And then it kind of dawned on me that once I got to a like a relatively senior decision making point in marketing, that I was doing more coordinating than I was actually doing strategy and actually getting closer to doing something transformative for the business.

00;06;18;28 - 00;06;38;20
Jo
I was sort of just doing a lot of business commercial type of planning, which doesn't energize me. There are people who are excellent at that and who love doing that, and I just realized that I wasn't that person. And I thought if I have to keep going down the marketing path into this space, I'm not going to be fulfilled.

00;06;38;22 - 00;07;16;21
Jo
What I really love was transformation. So anything to do with taking an existing business plan or strategy and saying, how do we flip this around and create something really exponentially differentiating for the organization or the brand and the opportunity to do that? And insights came up and I kind of went, I don't really know that much about insights other than the fact that it has a very large strategic component and it allows you to go very, very deep on the site, almost like the psychological aspect of understanding human beings, which can help you to uncover some really tremendous new opportunities.

00;07;16;21 - 00;07;37;29
Jo
So it was very much kind of with a lot of fear and curiosity that I thought, I'll just take a stab and make my way there. And I say scary as well, because any time someone ask me that question, I think back to the point where I decided to make that change and I was at a mark Ritson event and Australia oh.

00;07;38;01 - 00;07;39;19
Meagan
So jealous.

00;07;39;21 - 00;07;46;22
Jo
I was, I was a massive fangirl of I mean I still am of my cross and I'm trying to get him on my show and.

00;07;46;24 - 00;07;51;15
Meagan
That's like my dream and it's like my goal, like to be able to get Mark Rich and on the podcast, right?

00;07;51;17 - 00;08;10;26
Jo
Then you can just die happy, right? Yeah, totally. So I, of course, I cornered him after the event, as you do being like the massive fangirl that I was like, as soon as everyone stood up, I like ran over to him and started talking to him and he said to me, basically, he said, You, you can't leave marketing.

00;08;10;26 - 00;08;42;04
Jo
You need to say market marketing is where the strategy of the business is set. That is the most important role in any organization. Essentially put the fear of God in me that I had made this decision to leave marketing. And so that made it even more scary for me. But I guess what it also made me realize is that marketing is a pivotal part of the business, but so other functions like insights, particularly if you think about COVID, was almost like hand in hand with our leadership and our strategic scene.

00;08;42;05 - 00;08;53;07
Jo
So it's the same thing with forces. If you find if you can find the right collaborators in the organization, you can play a critical part no matter where you sit in the org chart.

00;08;53;10 - 00;09;09;06
Meagan
Yeah. Oh, that's big. I don't know if you've read Margaret's and he just wrote something about the new bad light. It's like backlash. And I read that this morning. It was like, so interesting. And it was, yeah, we could probably do a whole process test on how much we.

00;09;09;06 - 00;09;10;26
Jo
Love our fangirling on rockets.

00;09;10;29 - 00;09;14;04
Patricia
Cynthia Oh.

00;09;14;07 - 00;09;15;00
Meagan
No, go ahead.

00;09;15;00 - 00;09;33;04
Patricia
Patricia I was going to say so. So thinking about that, going from insights then to foresight, that's something. And, and I think about, you know, when we think about the future of Dig and future of market research in general, a lot of companies do insights. Not a lot of companies are talking about foresight. Yeah, tell me about that.

00;09;33;04 - 00;09;50;05
Patricia
Like, what is it that kind of makes McDonald's potentially a bit of a leader in that that you are putting all this focus on it and like what do you think the future holds for it? Is it something that we're going to see more of? Is it something us as Dig Insights need to get ahead of the curve on?

00;09;50;08 - 00;10;10;20
Jo
And I think that foresight can be and should be leveraged across all businesses and all types of organizations. So I really I really do hope to see more of that. And I think it's incredibly beneficial. And there are just so many different ways that you can use it. So you can absolutely do foresight more from like a future thinking perspective.

00;10;10;20 - 00;10;34;07
Jo
So how do you just get people to be a little bit more open about the possibilities you can use it for, you know, very, very strategic planning activities like Wargaming and really getting in there and anticipating what your competitors might be doing. You can do it for, you know, your three year brand planning. It's really enhancer and take it to a different place.

00;10;34;10 - 00;10;56;01
Jo
So there's just a multitude of ways that foresight can be used. So I would say if anybody is interested in, you know, finding out whether it's, you know, it's beneficial and it's relevant, the answer is yes, because it can be applied in so many different ways. We definitely in McDonald's are embracing foresight and giving it agency, which is incredible.

00;10;56;01 - 00;11;16;05
Jo
I've never seen anything quite like it before. Whether I was observing foresight, being used before I was in the field or when I was doing it at Mars. I've connected in with a lot of different organizations that are now setting up for Slack functions or have had it in some way, shape or form over the years. So I would say definitely we are not the first.

00;11;16;07 - 00;11;44;24
Jo
We learned a lot from others who have been doing it for a while, like IKEA, PepsiCo. A lot of companies are now just starting to stand it up like General Mills, Novartis, and we just collaborate and talk with these organizations all of the time. And the the key message that comes back, which is so true, is it's a really big challenge to set it up effectively and it's incredibly impactful when it's done well.

00;11;44;27 - 00;12;04;29
Meagan
How so? Big question But how have you set it up at McDonald's or like maybe not you specifically, but when you say it's a challenge to set it up, I guess first subquestion, why is it so challenging? The next question is how have you sort of mitigated that? Have you set it up for success?

00;12;05;02 - 00;12;41;19
Jo
I was very lucky because I did come in and it was already set up for me. And I have an amazing leader who happened to have already appeared on your podcast, so I highly encourage everyone to listen to the episode with Michelle Gasly. When she set it up, she kind of took the best of what works well When you are doing that, which is to directly connect foresight into the strategic planning process or whatever the annual planning process is, you actually create a space where it comes in and if you think about it logically, it just makes sense that every planning process starts with the, okay, let's look at what's happening in the world and

00;12;41;19 - 00;13;19;09
Jo
understand the context and, you know, really open our minds to the possibilities. Most planning processes start like that and then they find you narrow in. So she created that place for it. And also, to her credit, now has given me absolute freedom to be able to then say, what do I think it needs to be? Also, having practice foresight for a number of years now, you know, I have a lot of a lot of learnings under my belt of where it works and where it doesn't work, but basically, you know, the key the key components of it when you're setting it up, I think is to really kind of come in and do an assessment

00;13;19;09 - 00;13;41;23
Jo
of what your what your organization is ready for and what it most needs foresight to be for McDonald's. We we really need it to be integrated into our planning process because we have a very large and complex organization. So we have, you know, our corporate side of the business. We have our markets, we have our franchisees or owner operators.

00;13;41;25 - 00;14;21;19
Jo
So there are a lot of kind of components within that. So it needs to be something really synergistic. So the planning process is a great input into that. And then the other thing that we do is a lot of workshops and a lot of tailored sessions to different parts of the organization so we can really find the right topic or the right exercise or the right deep dive to be able to really change the way that people think about something in a way that is actionable so we can open people's minds up about something and then they can they know what to do with it at the end.

00;14;21;19 - 00;14;55;13
Jo
So a tangible example is we just collaborated with our data science team and our tech and digital teams on generative AI. So, you know, this generative AI topic is just bouncing around in the left, right and center. We can't open our LinkedIn without seeing something about it. And so preemptively we brought that to the business and said, Hey, let's try to understand generative AI from a technology perspective, what it is and also from a foresight perspective, what it could be, and kind of took that to them with some recommendations.

00;14;55;13 - 00;15;15;04
Jo
So I feel like that answer was very broad, but it's kind of representative of, of like what foresight is and can be. It can be incredibly broad. And I think what's the most critical and important part when you're setting it up is just a really not just take it as it is in another organization or what an agency might tell you that you need to do with it.

00;15;15;04 - 00;15;22;22
Jo
But to really start from the inside of the org and build it out to be tailored to what you need.

00;15;22;24 - 00;15;47;06
Patricia
And Joe, one great show to Michelle. We're all big Michelle fans here, so definitely we go listen to that podcast. So tell us a little bit about Megan. I heard talking about this a little earlier, Like tell us the difference in like how you how you do foresight at McDonald's versus like insight or are you using the same skills, the same methodologies for qual?

00;15;47;06 - 00;15;55;25
Patricia
Are you using a lot more like trends research, secondary data? How like what does your day to day look like? How how are you doing your work?

00;15;55;27 - 00;16;25;16
Jo
It's similar but different, which is not a cop out answer. But the the key thing with insight, right, is that you're you're really, while you're understanding the consumer of today or you're understanding why something is happening today and you're leveraging trends and you're leveraging historical data to really almost go deeper on that. So foresight includes that is kind of one component of many things when we're looking at what's happening in the world and projecting it out into the future.

00;16;25;19 - 00;16;49;00
Jo
It's a critical part of that because you want to make sure that you're included. You know, real customer data, what are they actually buying? You're including real, you know, consumer sentiment and what are they feeling and thinking. And then digging, digging deep into that to understand it. But then you're sort of using a multitude of other sources that allow you to look at the what next and what if.

00;16;49;03 - 00;17;08;10
Jo
So that that part of it is very different. It's almost like, you know, we talk a lot with our risk management teams. We talk a lot with our resiliency teams or even our strategic teams in the business like corporate strategy. And, you know, every time you do is like, yeah, we do a bit of that as well. Like risk management.

00;17;08;10 - 00;17;34;11
Jo
Does Horizon Scanning and the corporate strategy team do scenario planning. So there are elements that are the same. And I think that the biggest difference is that we we go much broader. So we're almost experts in nothing knowledgeable on everything because we need to be able to go to very, very broad, very objectively capture copious amounts of data, analyze it, synthesize and then project it out.

00;17;34;13 - 00;17;57;17
Jo
And there are tools and methodologies that help us to do that. But the biggest the biggest difference from the distinction of insights is really just that. It's that, you know, insights are the experts in the business of being the voice of the customer because they really deeply understand what people think, feel and do. And then foresight helps you to take that and say, what are they going to do next?

00;17;57;19 - 00;18;17;05
Patricia
Yeah. Which, which is to me always the harder question. And I think about that from my work because that's my job. I talk to consumers, customers every single day and the second, you know, you even start to think about what's next, they're not good at that. So it's bringing in those other voices and figuring out how to think outside the box and what that means.

00;18;17;05 - 00;18;27;02
Patricia
Because, yeah, the consumer themselves can't usually tell you that. So it's having to kind of put it in context of, of the rest of the world. I feel many anyways.

00;18;27;05 - 00;18;47;20
Jo
Yeah. Yeah. And insights has a bit of a backdrop for that as well. As you know we tell you what consumers will want in the future based on what they say that they'll want. And you know, nobody believes that anymore, thankfully, but that information are still really useful when you're starting to understand what they what they are drawn to.

00;18;47;25 - 00;18;55;20
Jo
And, you know, more than anything, why why they talking and thinking and feeling about these things and what that could mean for the future.

00;18;55;23 - 00;19;03;07
Patricia
Yeah, I love to think that I know what heels I'm going to like next season, but I'm not, not, not right.

00;19;03;09 - 00;19;23;01
Meagan
I am. Okay, maybe this is a very basic question, but when you talk about sources of data that you leverage that maybe your insights counterparts aren't leveraging as much. Like, can you explain what you mean? I'm sitting here being like, Where is the data coming from? Like, what is the data that you're talking about?

00;19;23;04 - 00;19;49;21
Jo
Yeah, it's it's a question that I get often. So it's absolutely not a basic question. And I think it's probably a really critical question because every foresight practitioner should know that they are getting a very broad and diverse set of data to do their horizon scanning slash analysis. So it really kind of starts very, very macro. So we usually start with the, you know, the steep macro forces of change or staple.

00;19;49;23 - 00;20;22;07
Jo
And so we're really pulling in data across that kind of spectrum. Any kind of analysis that allows us to understand changes that are taking place in society, governments, cultures at a longer time frame, so lasting generally two decades out, sometimes ten decades. And so you're looking at government policy shifts, you're looking at regulatory changes, you're looking at societal rifts, trust metrics.

00;20;22;09 - 00;20;48;23
Jo
You might be looking at things like, you know, like patent information and technological investment. So one of the fun facts that I always like to report on is percentage of science and technology spend as a component of GDP for markets. So market competitiveness, so all of these kind of very, very macro high level investments and then you bring it down, I guess one level.

00;20;48;23 - 00;21;10;11
Jo
So you're going a little bit closer into the industry or the category. So if at the macro level you're starting off with technological changes, understanding, you know, the last, you know, five decades of tech changes and you know, who's where are the investments coming from and who's winning and losing in that space. Then you bring it down a level and you say, you know, where are the big players within that?

00;21;10;14 - 00;21;47;25
Jo
And you're looking at their their data, their reporting, their patent innovation information, their consumer reception to what their partners and collaborators. And then you're kind of coming even closer into then your own industry and your own category. So what's, you know, a critical component of foresight is then looking. So if I'm doing something from McDonald's, I would look very closely at what's happening in food and QSR, but I would also look at the beauty industry, the airline industry, what the government of Japan is doing right now in countering China.

00;21;47;27 - 00;22;13;00
Jo
So you kind of go macro and micro. So that's an important starting point. You balance. There's this thing called the futures triangle, which is a helpful reference point, but you balance sort of the the the weight of history. So historical data, historical events, historical government movement with the kind of the pull of the I think is the pull of the present is what they say.

00;22;13;02 - 00;22;39;04
Jo
So what's happening today and then the push of the future. So where some of the emerging data is coming from. So the emerging data that we get, which is basically, you know, fringe signals, emerging innovation and all of that can come from a range of sources. So it can be from industry reports, it can be from meta analysis that's been done by experts, it can be from scientific papers.

00;22;39;06 - 00;22;58;13
Jo
It's and so that's why it's kind of a when you say it like that, people are like, okay, I don't know. I don't know where to start or you're not being very helpful because it is it is so broad and every topic that you investigate, you would go and find a different set of sources to be able to investigate it.

00;22;58;13 - 00;23;23;28
Jo
But it's also, in short, a combination of qualitative data. Quantitative data never always qualitative, but never always quantitative, and a lot of meta analysis that you're then trying to almost break apart and disaggregate and question and pull apart and, you know, try to always find that kind of the nugget that somebody else hasn't found.

00;23;24;01 - 00;23;26;26
Meagan
Love that that's so cool.

00;23;26;28 - 00;23;33;14
Patricia
Never always called never always quiet. I can we put I might put that on our website later just.

00;23;33;16 - 00;23;34;17
Jo
Saying.

00;23;34;20 - 00;23;39;12
Meagan
Well do I want to work in for say like maybe I don't know I'm thinking about it now.

00;23;39;19 - 00;23;41;12
Jo
Do it.

00;23;41;14 - 00;23;43;16
Meagan
That's so cool.

00;23;43;18 - 00;24;00;22
Patricia
So you have all of these different factors, all these things going on, all these sets of data so that I think about. You mentioned earlier you came from Australia, you know, you moved to, I think he said New Jersey for 4 hours, which by the way before this we found that we both have a love for New Jersey, which is kind of weird.

00;24;00;25 - 00;24;28;25
Patricia
And now, now you're in Chicago and you're in a global kind of role. How does that I assume there's some like looking at some regions, some you know, the world's a really big place. How do that how do you then say like, you know, let's look at the U.S. or let's look at Asia or let's look at the world as a whole, that must get another just complete level of like complexity there.

00;24;28;27 - 00;24;50;04
Jo
Yeah, And I really love that. I really enjoy that, whether it's a specific thing that we're doing for a market, cause we work with markets quite a lot. I just this year alone, I've done 15 engagements with markets in 15 different markets, and each one has to be tailored to their data, their context, their version of the trends that we're talking about.

00;24;50;06 - 00;25;30;11
Jo
And we also do it with functions, right? So I can go deep on supply chain or the sustainability team. So I actually really love that part of my job and that's also why it's important to start at that global level. So actually the role that I'm in now is perfect, perfectly structured in that sense because I was in a local market role, which obviously allows me to have been an expert in Australia, which is obviously important for that role and also really helpful actually when I'm now dealing with markets and they're like, you don't understand these global trends don't relate to me and I can go, Yes, I totally understand why you're starting from that

00;25;30;11 - 00;25;51;17
Jo
position, because I was there. I was like, Australia is different and unique and things come to us at a different pace. And then when I moved into Mars, the role that I was in was North America. With integration into other parts of the world. So I was very, very much looking at the U.S. and Canada. Now my role is global with a global mandate.

00;25;51;17 - 00;26;13;12
Jo
So I look at universal global shifts that are happening in the world, and then I go deep on markets. And I actually think that's the perfect setup, particularly for our organization, because I need to be able to understand what is universally transferable. You know, what is what is that human truth that translates across any culture or any market.

00;26;13;18 - 00;26;55;28
Jo
It just comes to life in a different way. You know, it'll be embraced by consumers with the nuance of the culture that they're in, or it'll be launched through a product that is relevant to that market and the, you know, maturity stage that they're at. So I actually, yeah, I love that part of my job. The change is the change is probably just one of my favorite parts of having gone from a you know, I don't know if this is offensive, so no offense Australia, but a small market like Australia where you have a lot of creative control and a pretty closed kind of set environment to be able to experiment a lot, which is

00;26;55;28 - 00;27;23;19
Jo
amazing to know, just being in a much bigger playing field and having much, many more challenges, that means you're constantly having to do that. So to answer your question, balancing the the kind of global perspective because you can get tapped on the shoulder at any point and they'll ask you what's happening in Egypt to then going like going very, very deep for a specific market to give them recommendations.

00;27;23;19 - 00;27;27;18
Jo
It's it's one of my favorite parts of the job.

00;27;27;21 - 00;27;57;06
Meagan
Is there any market or function, I guess, that you look to this is a tough call. I'm trying to figure out how to ask it like a market or a function that you look to eyes and maybe market to better, better off, but like they're sort of ahead of the curve. Or you look at them and you think like, this is might be where the North American market is going to be in this function or in this category in several years time.

00;27;57;06 - 00;28;01;21
Meagan
Like, I'm just wondering if there's macro trends that you can give us.

00;28;01;21 - 00;28;41;01
Jo
FITHIAN Yeah. So yes, across varied shifts or trends or forces that are leading markets and you can take leading in different ways as well because for example, we always say that the US is leading and you know, a lot of the more societal based shifts around liberal values and inclusion and progressive thinking, but at the same time they are the most polarized market, while technically the third most polarized market in the world after Argentina and Colombia.

00;28;41;04 - 00;29;03;14
Jo
So like, yes, they are expressing that and that and you can see that and we talk about that quite a lot as the U.S. and there are liberal values, but it also doesn't bring a lot of cohesion. So you could also paint them as like a poster child for where people in the country are completely divided and can't find unity on core basic facts.

00;29;03;16 - 00;29;33;16
Jo
If if that's an area that you'd like to be leading in, I think that they would certainly what we say is that anything to do with sustainability and wellness, you know, definitely the European markets are leading on that front. And certainly when you talk about immersion technological innovation, the US is leading on that front, but also obviously Germany and other pockets of the world.

00;29;33;18 - 00;29;51;29
Jo
And then if you if you kind of look at where, you know, going a little bit more macro, the future global South, so where the future populations are going to be and where the future economies are going to be, China is really leading in that front, not in China, but in other parts of the world where they're investing in the future global south.

00;29;52;01 - 00;30;21;10
Jo
So their investments in Africa, for example. So yeah, it's it's even interesting when I've been deep diving into specific areas with different markets as I do like a pretty intensive weeklong exploration of what's actually happening inside of that region or country. And I learn things. I have this these massive aha moments that I then try to synergy eyes and then put that to that thought leadership team.

00;30;21;10 - 00;30;46;29
Jo
So I just had one with the US and I was, you know, talking to them about how technologically advanced the US is. The fourth most competitive market in the world, tremendous spend in innovation, but actually a lot of that is coming from private organizations. So you need to have the policies in place to continue to support private entrepreneurs, to create ideas and bring that to market.

00;30;47;01 - 00;30;50;27
Jo
Anyways, I went on a complete tangent then, but I see. Yes.

00;30;50;29 - 00;31;08;18
Meagan
So that's like fascinating. I was literally thinking to myself, I'm like, she's like a it's like you're solving a mystery that you don't even know exists. Sort of like you're bringing all the parts together, but you're like solving this mystery that no one asked you to solve, but you're solving it anyways. I don't know.

00;31;08;25 - 00;31;13;17
Jo
It's very I don't know if I'm solving I'm almost like, you're just constantly investigating.

00;31;13;24 - 00;31;17;09
Meagan
You're going to be one step closer to solving it.

00;31;17;11 - 00;31;22;14
Patricia
So I did here and there. What's Canada leading it? What do we.

00;31;22;16 - 00;31;27;23
Jo
Have? This one? Yeah, I'm trying to remember because I did that.

00;31;27;28 - 00;31;30;15
Patricia
All right. It's okay to say nothing.

00;31;30;19 - 00;31;53;06
Jo
No, I mean, I think I think wellness is actually an area that candidate does really well. It has a very strong social support network, a lot of investment from the government in that space. It actually ranks really quite well on the democracy index. So people in Canada feel like they can demonstrate their democratic values. And on the well, the Global Wellness Index.

00;31;53;06 - 00;32;16;04
Jo
So the Happiness report. So people in Canada who live there are actually very happy. Some concerns that I did flagged for them was, you know, particularly in agriculture and sustainability and the sustainability goals that are in place in Canada and obviously so reliant on the agricultural systems in Canada, they're definitely not progressing fast enough and not supporting farmers.

00;32;16;05 - 00;32;17;28
Jo
Off the top of my head, I listened to my.

00;32;17;28 - 00;32;19;14
Meagan
Report and.

00;32;19;16 - 00;32;25;23
Patricia
I'm like, I'm so impressed you can answer that question. So I was just completely out of left field.

00;32;25;25 - 00;32;45;12
Jo
You caught me on a good day. Most days I'd be like, Oh, which market was that again? That's a lot of data going on up here. But yeah, I mean, if anybody is and you know, there are people like this, we we often say, you know, there are people with very bouncy brains that your topic, your topic areas are so broad because your brain is constantly like what about this?

00;32;45;12 - 00;32;58;23
Jo
What about that? You like going down rabbit holes and you like reading and exploring a lot and going, you know, what about this? What about that? What if this then foresight is definitely a great field to be in.

00;32;58;26 - 00;33;28;09
Meagan
I have one more question for you. I mean, I can I actually have like 50 more questions, but I'm going to ask one because we're we're almost at time, I guess, that the thing I keep thinking as you're explaining how amazing and exciting this area is, is how do you know it's working like so, for instance, as a marketer, I keep thinking, okay, my target is this not this many demos for our technology platform upside.

00;33;28;12 - 00;33;48;17
Meagan
And I know that my marketing is working because it's leading to the outcome that I that I want to do. And I know insights work doesn't necessarily work that way. Like there's softer KPIs that are involved that are equally as important, but just maybe not as easy to measure. And I'm wondering if that's something that you consider when it comes to the projects you take on.

00;33;48;19 - 00;34;03;14
Meagan
Like how do you know if the work that you've done has really enacted the change? I guess whether that's a change in strategy or a change in the way that the organization functions, what does that look like in terms of the way you think about it?

00;34;03;16 - 00;34;33;14
Jo
Yeah, I mean, I, I have a little bit of a bias where I'm I'm drawn to roles that are tangibly and meaningfully impactful. And the impact needs to be something that is actually real, not claimed and tangible. So it's absolutely something that I think about right at the start of anything that I do, even if it's the presentation that I'm giving, is how do I measure the success of this and whether it's actually landed and had an impact.

00;34;33;16 - 00;35;11;01
Jo
So at a very kind of high level, what we try to do is make sure that our recommendations are feeding into the planning process or the strategic process and and or the structure of the organization. So if we're creating new innovation spaces for example, has foresight fit into that if where, you know, beefing up the the projects underneath, for example, our nutrition team has foresight fed into that so that it can be very kind of indirect or it can be direct influence.

00;35;11;03 - 00;35;48;10
Jo
So definitely an action that's taken out of a recommendation or something that we flagged. The second, I guess is because we always talk about for foresight as a part of future thinking, so imaginative thinking, you know, really it's it's an I guess it's an element of creative thinking to bring into it, which is really important because we are usually a part of more dryer forums where you're doing simulations of the future and scenario planning and causal analysis and these things that feel very methodical and they are.

00;35;48;15 - 00;36;22;08
Jo
But you're still guessing in a way, right, about what could be what should be, what do you want to happen? What will likely happen and so a big part of that is the imagination to change your organization. So that is a critical success. Point for me is when we have senior leaders in our organization who are in decision making positions, who become more open to possible futures that are better for the organization, better for the people working with us and better for obviously, the planet.

00;36;22;11 - 00;36;54;15
Jo
So how do you measure that? You know, it's it's a feedback loop. It's then saying, this was amazing. I want to do this again with a different leadership team, which happens to us all the time. Why The demand is than the supply of our time at the moment. But that's that's really critical. And so I guess if anybody is starting out and for sighing and thinking, how do I measure my impact, like keep capturing those case studies of how many people you've impacted, what has it led to?

00;36;54;17 - 00;37;11;23
Jo
Even if it's an indirect input into something broader, this the ability to show that you have shifted either the mindset or the planning or the capability of those teams, which is obviously incredibly rewarding when it happens.

00;37;11;25 - 00;37;15;09
Meagan
Amazing. Patricia, did you have anything else you wanted to ask?

00;37;15;09 - 00;37;36;02
Patricia
Joe Oh, no, I think I think I'm good. I was just thinking, though, before we do leave, I know you're presenting at IEEE X in a few weeks in Austin, which I am very excited. I was more excited last week when it was cold here. Now that is starting to get a little warmer. I have seen some sun.

00;37;36;02 - 00;37;46;08
Patricia
I got a little bit of a tan on, but yeah, I know you're presenting in in like two weeks, so we'll be seeing you there. But I don't know if you want to tell us a little bit about why you're presenting on this.

00;37;46;10 - 00;38;10;26
Jo
I am going to be talking about foresight. Surprisingly so. I didn't get enough of my waffling on this podcast. Come in, come in, Listen in. I am doing a presentation actually kind of showing how you can do one specific type of foresight tool and use that in your organization. It can be for foresight professionals or anyone and then the other thing I'm doing is a live podcast.

00;38;10;26 - 00;38;32;15
Jo
So with my show looking outside, so it'll be a live podcast with Rachel Lawes, who is a semiotics expert. So how do you use symbols and signs and, you know, be more intentionally observant about what you see in the world and pull that into creating deeper meaning and understanding of your customer?

00;38;32;18 - 00;38;53;22
Patricia
Do you know I have a book right here by her and it has all of her notes. I'll show you. So just like that. And I just said her name because I was going to ask you last year or the year before, and I asked the best question in the group. So I got her a copy of her book with all of her notes and insights.

00;38;53;24 - 00;39;02;16
Meagan
This is your opportunity, Patricia, to tell to tell us that you ask the best question. I'm a researcher. I ask the best question or.

00;39;02;18 - 00;39;11;18
Patricia
The best question just because I did see that actually when I was kind of going around on your LinkedIn page. Oh, my God, I've met her. Yeah, that's right.

00;39;11;20 - 00;39;27;09
Jo
So yeah, so yeah, it'll be it'll be great because I think she yeah, she's obviously done semiotics and marketing and now she's just done it in retail, which is I think the book that you're holding up. So we'll be able to talk a little bit more about that, which will be good fun.

00;39;27;11 - 00;39;28;19
Patricia
Have to listen in.

00;39;28;22 - 00;39;44;27
Meagan
Yeah. I mean, saying thank thank you so much Joe I am going to plug again just podcast called Looking Outside will include a link in the show notes so that you guys can check it out. But yeah, this has been absolutely fascinating. So thank you so much for joining us today.

00;39;45;05 - 00;39;46;07
Jo
Thank you for having me on.

00;39;46;10 - 00;39;57;19
Meagan
Awesome. Bye. Thanks for tuning in this week. Find us on LinkedIn at Dig Insights. And don't forget to hit subscribe for a weekly dose of fresh content.