00;00;06;23 - 00;00;34;15
Meagan
Hi. Welcome to Dig In the podcast brought to you by Dig Insights. Every week we interview founders, marketers and researchers, from innovative brands to learn how they're approaching their role and their category in a clever way. Welcome back to this week's episode of Dig In the podcast brought to you by Dig Insights. My name is Meagan. I am very lucky to be joined today by Lia Grimberg, who is a principal at Radical Loyalty.

00;00;34;17 - 00;01;02;23
Meagan
Today we're going to be chatting with Lia and Marcie Connan, who is an EVP of Insights here at Dig Insights. That's a lot of insights that I just said. But yes, we're joined by Marcie and Lia. We're going to be talking about when it makes sense to have a loyalty program, how you assess what those rewards need to be, who to look to in the in the consumer brand landscape that is doing things particularly well.

00;01;02;25 - 00;01;10;07
Meagan
Basically, we're going to be talking all things all things little to program. So Lia and Marcie, thank you for joining me today.

00;01;10;10 - 00;01;13;18
Lia
Thanks so much for inviting me, Megan. Pleasure to be here.

00;01;13;21 - 00;01;25;06
Meagan
Yeah. Lia, why don't you tell me a little bit about your background. So how did you get into this space and what have you been up to over the last few years?

00;01;25;09 - 00;01;53;23
Lia
Yes, absolutely. So most recently, as you mentioned, I founded a company called Radical Loyalty, where we decode the mysteries and the secrets behind customer loyalty. And we do that by unleashing the brand's data to help them connect with their customers on an emotional level through marketing communications and as side said, through through insights. But this is a new and recent venture for me.

00;01;53;25 - 00;02;20;11
Lia
I have 20 plus years in an industry working both from a practitioner point of view and loyalty and a consultant at big, big brands like American Express, the Home Depot, Loblaw, the Bay Loyalty, One, Air Miles, etc.. So I'm thrilled to be talking about my favorite topic of all time.

00;02;20;13 - 00;02;40;08
Meagan
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you've got so much knowledge to draw up on this topic, which is, which is amazing. And Marcie but I was chatting internally to two folks about getting the chance to speak to Lia. She had kind of said, Oh, my gosh, I love, love, loyalty. I've worked in loyalty for a long time. I'd love to join.

00;02;40;10 - 00;02;45;26
Meagan
Marcie, Can you just tell our listeners a little bit about your experience in customer loyalty?

00;02;45;28 - 00;03;11;02
Marcie
Yeah, absolutely. So currently I'm supporting number of brands on either the development or refinement of their loyalty programs or even the measurement in terms of how things are going. But my love for loyalty started when I was back on the client side working at Canadian Tire, which is the oldest or the longest standing loyalty program in Canada, going back to their their paper money.

00;03;11;05 - 00;03;14;20
Meagan
Oh, my gosh. Their paper money is iconic these days.

00;03;14;22 - 00;03;44;13
Marcie
It has its own cult following. And there's so that was a great brand to really kind of sink my teeth into kind of early in my career. And yeah, it really sparked a passion for understanding how you can build both within your customer base. And now I'm, you know, on the other side of the table looking at the kind of the analytics and insights side of things, but, you know, it's something I've always been real intrigued by and happy to be servicing a number of different brands now.

00;03;44;13 - 00;03;47;16
Marcie
And that on that topic.

00;03;47;19 - 00;04;20;19
Meagan
Very cool. Thank you. As you were talking, I was just thinking like obviously the fact they had paper money, but the entire as part of their loyalty program was pretty amazing. And it feels really old school now. Was there anything in particular, Marcie, about the Canadian Tire loyalty program besides the fact that it was paper money that you felt like was like particularly insightful or incredibly well done or unique?

00;04;20;22 - 00;04;23;24
Meagan
Just yeah, just curious.

00;04;23;26 - 00;04;47;17
Marcie
Yeah. I mean, it's a program that really has evolved over the years, and I think if anything, it's a good lesson in how important it is to stay in tune with what your customers really want from the program. You know, really interesting that there are a wide range of benefits and things that you can tap into, but it really starts with understanding what your customer wants and what they value.

00;04;47;19 - 00;05;15;07
Marcie
And you know, with that program, there were consumers and, you know, who really, really loved that tangible, tactile side of the the paper money program. And you know, thinking about how to evolve that into the digital space was just so fascinating, understanding where consumers were willing to trade off on things like accessibility and ease of tracking and things like that, versus some of the nostalgia that can come with programs like this.

00;05;15;07 - 00;05;33;05
Marcie
I think, you know, these programs really are habit forming when they're done well. And so there's always this kind of double edged sword of how can you evolve it, keep it fresh, keep it meaningful, but not not lose sight of what that customer wants. At the end of the day.

00;05;33;08 - 00;05;35;25
Meagan
Anything you wanted to add, Dalia?

00;05;35;28 - 00;06;18;15
Lia
Well, I remember myself as a little kid having those paper money and to me, loyalty is all about the lifecycle of a customer and the fact that that paper money was so tangible. Tahmooressi's point actually brought the younger consumers in on board at a child age. And so really it helped us grow up with the program. And when it actually evolved to its current state being digital and a lot more current, we've been bought in from the get go and it was our loyalty program with training wheels at the time, which is fascinating.

00;06;18;16 - 00;06;49;19
Lia
Of course, the downside of it is unfortunately being on paper, it didn't actually allow Canadian Tire to garner any insights in terms of its member base or its usage. And the digitalization of it, of course, was driven by consumer preferences and expectation, but also the fact that really such an investment in loyalty really needs to be backed up by the main asset that it drives, which is the data.

00;06;49;21 - 00;07;22;04
Meagan
Yeah, I think that that's a very good point. And I was kind of when I came into this, I was like, Yeah, let's just put the fact that it was paper money to one side. But you're totally right. I mean, it's served a purpose. The fact that it was this tactile sort of almost like monopoly money for, for children to, you know, and then, of course, the trade off was that they weren't able to actually capture and capture the right data to sort of continue to stay in tune with what their customers want or what those rewards should be.

00;07;22;06 - 00;07;39;26
Meagan
Kind of brings me to I don't want to get too far because I know we do want to talk about some examples of other brands that are currently doing a fantastic job. But before we get there, I want to dive in a little bit to like, how do you know if a brand should even have a loyalty program?

00;07;39;29 - 00;07;59;23
Meagan
It sounds amazing to like as someone who might work on the brand side in marketing, like, you know what, I would love for my brand to have a loyalty program and keep customers coming back time and time again. But what are sort of the signs or signals that it makes sense for a brand to have their own loyalty program with customers?

00;07;59;26 - 00;08;38;12
Lia
Yeah. So I am very cautious of when a brand should actually have a loyalty program, to be honest. And the reason for that is primarily it is a huge investment of particularly for for financial services and retailers on the investment in a loyalty program is going to be your largest expense after a cost of goods sold. And if you don't have the budget to be able to actually afford the rewards, the benefits, the value you're going to provide back to the customer, there's really no no reason to start one.

00;08;38;16 - 00;09;20;11
Lia
So that's that's definitely one. The second is your loyalty program is not necessarily a tool to drive acquisition to your brand. People do not come to your brand to join a loyalty program. It's typically about the fifth or sixth reason why people shop with you. It is really a tool to engage your existing customers. So once your brand is is in the post driving acquisition stage and really wants to has has a solid enough base of consumers that they want to collect insights from or continue driving sales through or engage in.

00;09;20;11 - 00;09;57;27
Lia
I trump that is the right time. And also at the same time when data becomes a high priority because really the best and the biggest reason for you to have a loyalty program is to collect and invest data. And particularly it's less of an issue in an economic environment. It's more of an issue when you have both e-comm and a brick and mortar kind of operations, because it allows you to connect your your users in a single profile across all the different brand interactions.

00;09;57;29 - 00;10;26;07
Lia
And finally, the the other main component of loyalty is that it drives very specific. Keep your eyes and there has to be buy in across the C-suite on what were the the actual objectives and the KPIs that the program is trying to drive. And there has to be integration of the loyalty program throughout every single brand interaction for the customer.

00;10;26;07 - 00;10;48;27
Lia
And so there has to be that need to believe and buy in across the entire organization because it cannot operate as a silo. So as long as those four criteria are met, that's when the organization is ready. I would say if if you cannot meet all four, then it's probably better not to do not to go down that path.

00;10;49;00 - 00;10;57;28
Meagan
You what should those KPIs be in your in your experience that for a loyalty program.

00;10;58;00 - 00;11;26;05
Lia
They honestly vary and it depends on on what what is the main challenge that you're trying to drive. And those KPIs are actually going to drive the design of the program. So they could be and they have to be more broad than I want to drive sales, they have to be a little bit more specific. So it could be I need to drive frequency, I need to recognize my best customers, I need to drive margin, I need to on average basket.

00;11;26;11 - 00;11;57;15
Lia
What is the specific behavior that you're trying to change, promote, encourage among your customer base and you can come up with potentially top two or three as long as third quarter. And that that way the actual design is going to then support what you're trying to drive and then hopefully that'll get better by and throughout the application because it's actually going to move the business in the right direction.

00;11;57;18 - 00;12;24;00
Meagan
And how do you where does Brand sort of come into all of this in terms of what do I mean by that? To what extent do you need and I guess the KPIs of the loyalty program to be associated with like your brand values or a feeling that you want people to get when they're shopping with you? Like how does that become part of the conversation?

00;12;24;02 - 00;12;59;29
Lia
Absolutely. So remember how I mentioned that your your program is never going to be the top reasons that the customer shops with you, your customer has expectations about what the brand is supposed to deliver. And so the loyalty program needs to support those brand and any literature, any research that you will read will tell you that the higher the alignment between the brand and the loyalty or value proposition, the higher you will have vs your customer satisfaction in your loyalty program.

00;13;00;04 - 00;13;53;07
Lia
So loyalty program, loyalty is an outcome overall. It's not it's not necessarily a program. So the experience is has to be holistic and it has to be mapped out across all the different touchpoints. And the program needs to be integrated with how, how the brand and the customers interact. They cannot be separated and it allows for really good synergies as a for instance, if your brand actually stands for a particular cause, your loyalty program could be a really great vehicle to deliver against those, whether it's through time, whether it's through financial or whether it's through the actual community support of that particular goal, that the brand actually supporting as well.

00;13;53;10 - 00;14;27;16
Meagan
Very interesting point, Lia. And in terms of when we think about like why loyalty is such a hot topic right now, because I do think that it is I mean, we just did a bunch of research about, you know, economic sentiment and how people are feeling, whether we're like in a recession or not in a recession and how people can sort of eke out more from the more rewards, I guess, from being brand loyal, you know, which sort of points providers people are obsessed with.

00;14;27;18 - 00;14;45;20
Meagan
Why would you say, other than sort of the economic situation that we're that we're in or the climate over? And why would you say that loyalty, I don't know is having is having a resurgence a little bit or having a little bit of time in the sun?

00;14;45;22 - 00;15;23;03
Lia
Yes. So absolutely. From a consumer point of view, in tough economic environments, points certainly act as a really good way of stretching your consumer dollar because they allow you to shop for gifts by yourself that extra or just could just add two points to your budget. The way I look at it as well is is also from the brand point of view and from the brand point of view, I loyalty programs enable this amazing ecosystem to drive relevance and personalization.

00;15;23;06 - 00;16;03;12
Lia
And what we're seeing in in today's world is that customers really understand what their data is worth and personalization and relevance is something they are coming to expect in exchange for the value of the data that they're providing. And what we're seeing is that customers are walking away from brands that don't deliver on those expectations. The research says that brands are losing about a 3% or third of their customers if they don't provide personalization, which is huge.

00;16;03;14 - 00;16;46;08
Lia
And so as companies are starting to focus on existing customers, which we know is where the bulk of the value can be recovered, and they need to close that leaky bucket of customers that are losing that, that are walking away. They really need to double down on existing customers. And so loyalty programs specifically enable you to have that that value exchange as well as the delivery of relevance in rewards, in communications, in experiences that that customers are demanding.

00;16;46;11 - 00;16;58;15
Lia
And we have now the tools, we have, the know how. And so where it is now are upon us to deliver against those expectations.

00;16;58;18 - 00;17;18;09
Meagan
When I, I think that point of personalization is a really good one. And just for someone, for anyone listening who might not know what we mean, like when you say personalization, do you mean the ability for someone to choose what those rewards are like? What does personalization mean in this context?

00;17;18;11 - 00;17;48;17
Lia
Personalization it can mean it's an excellent question because it can mean a whole host of things to two people used to mean getting your name right in an email, right with the old way of knowing it. But but personalization is all about relevance. It's it's about me knowing enough about you to provide you with communications products, offers that are that are interesting to you.

00;17;48;17 - 00;18;19;04
Lia
So if I know that, for instance, that you buy peanut butter every couple of weeks, it's about me providing you with the right level of discount for to drive that that kind of behavior versus I have someone who who's a vegetarian that I would never provide them with, with with any product recommendations, with any discounts on meat. It's about connecting with you through the channel of your choice at the time of your choice.

00;18;19;04 - 00;18;41;29
Lia
It's about product recommendations. As you're surfing through this giant website of a department store that provides that duration specifically based on your style, your size, your your fabric, your texture, your color preferences, as well as connecting it to what's in stock and what's potentially going on sale.

00;18;42;02 - 00;19;03;00
Meagan
Okay. That definitely really helps me just better pinpoint exactly what we mean when we say relevance. I'm Marcie. When it comes to the work that we do with our clients on their loyalty programs, how do we get a better sense of sort of relevance and what would be relevant for them to be offering at any given time?

00;19;03;02 - 00;19;22;08
Marcie
Yeah, I think that a start, but it's understanding what the customer values like. So from the consumer lens, what are they driving the most value from the program that most programs are still very much rooted in points, rewards and things like that. But we've seen a lot of expansion in terms of how brands are thinking about delivery and rewards.

00;19;22;08 - 00;19;46;05
Marcie
It could be through partnerships, you know, which of those partnerships are valued, which will help drive that, you know, that frequency for the brand, for example, or in some cases it's about giving the consumer some choice in terms of how they want to engage with the program, you know, without citing any particular programs. For example, you know, some may even be tied to charitable causes.

00;19;46;09 - 00;19;46;22
Marcie
So which are.

00;19;46;22 - 00;19;47;26
Meagan
They viewed.

00;19;47;26 - 00;20;11;06
Marcie
By the by their particular customers and their best customers? Just keeping in mind that, you know, more often than not, we're really looking at how you really service those best customers within media, within the base for a particular brand, you know, even giving consumers choice. You know, even ten years ago, a lot of these programs were very kind of just standardized and kind of applied with a blanket.

00;20;11;13 - 00;20;42;14
Marcie
But now there's a lot more flexibility in terms of how programs can be delivered. An example, you know, there are some brands that will give consumers the choice in terms of how they may want to donate a reward to a charity and give them choices in terms of the causes that they want to support. So any of those small wins in terms of how that how they can make it more relevant to them personally, I think to go a long way and and allow for different customer types within that base to have different experiences as well.

00;20;42;16 - 00;21;02;06
Marcie
You know, you mentioned the idea, that idea of kind of, you know, it's not just about the point or the cash back always, sometimes it's about how you can engage with the brand through things like customized offers, promotions and things like that. And I think we see too, that that for some brands it's less about the product, more stuff.

00;21;02;06 - 00;21;26;03
Marcie
And they consumers may be placing more value on things like exclusivity. So do I get exclusive access to product, Do I get early access to sales or particular brand partnerships and things like that? So it's really about understanding what that consumer base understands and importantly, where are they making trade off? Because we can't you can't give it all, you know.

00;21;26;06 - 00;21;26;24
Meagan
Yeah.

00;21;27;02 - 00;21;49;05
Marcie
Those trade offs and understand what will have the most impact on on on measures that are either behavioral in terms of frequency spend recommendation or on the softer side that kind of that feel good element and that more kind of subjective side of loyalty. And often we're doing that not by simply asking the customer, what do you want?

00;21;49;07 - 00;22;03;01
Marcie
Because it's really easy to want it all. But really having them make those those hard decisions and trade offs really understand, you know, what they value and what will really impact the brand. At the end of the day.

00;22;03;03 - 00;22;21;17
Meagan
Yeah, that's such a component to having to make those tradeoffs. I mean, how if you had a client approach you and and want to understand like if you know, everyone wants everything, but if they, you know, what do they value most? How do you go about understanding that.

00;22;21;19 - 00;22;57;09
Lia
Again, we go back to the KPIs that they're trying to drive and the objectives of the program. What we tend to do is we segment their customer base into best next best dressed and then prospects. If the objective of the program is to recognize your best customers or to grow your next best or to drive prospects, then we focus on what that particular group wants and in in actually designing up the program.

00;22;57;12 - 00;23;32;01
Lia
And then there's this really neat tool from a research perspective at that that we use that allows the the research from a the research group to compare alternative and they can actually end up comparing tradeoffs between different features of the program and within within the parameters of the research. You can actually stipulate of this. This combination cannot be combined with this combination from a cost perspective or these two factors.

00;23;32;01 - 00;24;07;19
Lia
And these two attributes must always go together. So you can you can create the box within within which your your research group plays, and then they have to choose between A or B and it's it doesn't become a free for all their that that's when they actually end up providing which which trade offs they actually would prefer. And at the end you get an optimal program, a design that is specific actually designed for that one group that that you want you to actually drive.

00;24;07;21 - 00;24;29;12
Meagan
Sounds a little bit like upside if I'm understanding it correctly, which is our tech tool which allows you to sort of trade off and understand interest and sort of that commitment when when placed head to head. Marcie is that and that is something that we would use when understanding what works best for loyalty programs.

00;24;29;14 - 00;25;02;03
Marcie
Yeah, I can definitely see an application for something like Upside. Meghan When you're understanding what are the features and benefits that consumers might value, especially in the early stages of a program design where you really kind of looking at those high level benefits and understanding the tradeoff that they're making. I think as you get further down the path with really, really honing in on things like the reward structure, what the point where things like those you need to get a little bit more sophisticated in terms of the.

00;25;02;06 - 00;25;03;00
Meagan
Longer.

00;25;03;02 - 00;25;32;16
Marcie
Multiple pieces of the puzzle. But yeah, certainly in a in an early kind of benefit and feature screening stage or perhaps, you know, screening different partners or, or looking at, you know, claims and messages that might resonate outside would be a great tool. And I was just going to add as well that in addition to that kind of the program design side of things, we found, it's also so important to look at the redemption side of the equation as well.

00;25;32;19 - 00;25;57;00
Marcie
We have mentioned earlier, it's great to build these wonderful loyalty programs, but if your your brand can't execute on it, it becomes very costly and expensive or perhaps it's complex. Things can fall apart quite quickly. So often in our work, we're also looking at how consumers react to that program and and are spending their their rewards as well.

00;25;57;02 - 00;26;20;11
Marcie
And in that situation, you know, I think a new approach that that we've used that's been quite compelling is we actually simulate that environment. So let's imagine we're looking at travel rewards and we're making some some tweaks or adjustments to a program based on flight-plus. So rather than simply asking consumers to tell us what they might do, we actually create a simulated environment.

00;26;20;12 - 00;26;55;22
Marcie
So imagine you are on the program's website. We know that you're a domestic flier. You rarely fly for business, and you're often traveling, let's say, between Toronto and Vancouver. We can create those simulated environments, present you with a number of options and see how you might behave. Which flight are you actually going to book given these options, where does your behavior change as we start to play with components of the program, whether it's, you know, points, values or the impact of added added features like, let's say, extra checked baggage or an upgrade to the business class.

00;26;55;24 - 00;27;30;00
Marcie
And we actually see how you how you how that element plays out in terms of your actual behavior. So it can be really compelling to understand, you know, when you're in that choice situation, what what do consumers actually do and how does that change versus perhaps the current state? So in those situations, it's a much more complex and perhaps upside can handle, but it allows you to really look at all the different interconnected points in the program and understand how playing with one element impacts the other and ultimately what the consumer will choose.

00;27;30;03 - 00;27;33;07
Meagan
Cool. We want to find out that.

00;27;33;09 - 00;28;14;06
Lia
You have this complex financial model that you instruct that allows you to put all these different elements into a forecast so that you can figure out and budget for for reduction across different elements and different benefits. And to match these point brands sometimes shy away from redemptions because obviously they represent a cost. But what we know to be true is that a redemption triggers this amazing surge in in engagement and in spend with your brand, because two things happen.

00;28;14;07 - 00;28;39;15
Lia
There is this brand halo effect and the brand love that gets triggered in the minds of consumers on one hand and on the other hand. If it's a points based program, as the points get depleted past a certain amount, there is the desire to build up that balance to that psychological threshold. Yeah, we have in their mind of, Oh my goodness, I'm now below that amount.

00;28;39;15 - 00;28;59;16
Lia
I need to rebuild my balance. And so they're much more motivated to to earn. And there's really interesting ways of encouraging redemption that continues the building of that balance that brings the consumer back into into the brand environment of shopping.

00;28;59;19 - 00;29;26;11
Meagan
Yeah, I was going to say, we we've gone really nerdy on this one. I love it. But I was fascinated just to understand how we use and it sounds like the approach is quite similar for mercy and friendlier terms of getting an understanding of those trade offs and how you define what will work best for you. The most important sort of segment of customers for a brand.

00;29;26;13 - 00;29;49;11
Meagan
I am conscious of time, so I'd like to close out just on a final question around which brands are doing this really well. So want you to leave after listening to this podcast, like who should they be Googling to get a better sense of what works and what doesn't? Leo Why don't you kick us off?

00;29;49;14 - 00;30;20;01
Lia
So the blue always held Sephora as a gold standard of, of loyalty programs. And that's because. Yes, it has a points program and it has a birthday gift, which is a hugely, hugely valuable benefit, which they've recently changed, which caused a big backlash among the consumers, which means that people are paying attention and it's a valuable benefit. But I'll leave that aside.

00;30;20;04 - 00;30;58;06
Lia
What my favorite things about Sephora is, is that they go beyond just the basic, what we call acquire benefits of hard benefits, and they focus a lot on and on community and on access. And Marcie had mentioned it really depends what your what your customer value. So as you move up the tiers in in the Sephora program, you get access to sales to first releases of products and two exclusive shopping events as well.

00;30;58;08 - 00;31;32;29
Lia
And then from a community building perspective, Sephora's always been really great at getting customers to create and what I mean by that is they have a community board where I can go in and I can ask, can somebody help me contour a face and all of a sudden someone else can create a giant how to video walking me through editorial all of exactly what what I need to do recommending products for my skin type.

00;31;32;29 - 00;32;01;01
Lia
And they are not in any way affiliated with Sephora other than they just happened to be a fan and a member. But now we we are working together to create a more beautiful me, as well as connecting across to individuals who have a common goal but don't necessarily know each other. And so they, they have this amazing ecosystem.

00;32;01;03 - 00;32;34;23
Lia
And then my other favorite concept is that they were recently voted or selected as the number one retailer in terms of personalization by sale through. So they are really great at leveraging their data to create an experience that is specific to top tourist. Always, always the gold standard just because, like I said, they run the gamut of this not just hard benefits, but it's also about bonding and connection and community and creation as well.

00;32;34;26 - 00;33;00;05
Lia
So that's one. The other one is something that I actually would never be able to participate just because I'm Canadian and it's a U.S. based program. But they get a thumbs up from me. It's what the Walgreens program, it's called My Walgreens. And the reason for that is they actually have a private label co-brand credit card, actually, sorry, not private label.

00;33;00;05 - 00;33;42;15
Lia
It's a co-brand co-brand credit card. And they typically earn 1% cash back. But the what Walgreens being a pharmacy, what is really core to their brand is health and wellness and they use their co-branded credit card to promote health and wellness among their their member base outside of what necessarily hits their bottom line and profits them directly. So they have a multiplier where you buy, you get a 3% instead of 1% on payments to doctors, to dentists for counseling, for gym, for vets, for for pet store.

00;33;42;21 - 00;34;13;22
Lia
So things that that are good and benefit their members that are not necessarily connected to specific transactional behavior that benefit Walgreens per say which to me shows that they care about their consumers and the fact that they are connecting the with the brand values and what the brand stands for to what the loyalty program actually rewards you. So that's a win win.

00;34;13;25 - 00;34;42;16
Meagan
Yeah, I've never heard of the Walgreens example, but I am a Sephora supporter. A member I guess is what you would call it. And yeah, I think it's a really interesting category because people are so passionate about makeup and the makeup that works for them. And like if it's your thing, you absolutely love it. So the idea of getting exclusive offers two things The idea of having a community around this like makeup ecosystem, I totally can get behind.

00;34;42;19 - 00;34;52;10
Meagan
So, yeah, everything you were saying, I was like, Yes, yes, yes, that resonates. Marcie Do you have any other examples you'd like to call out?

00;34;52;12 - 00;35;00;24
Marcie
Yeah, You know, I think although not a traditional free customer reward program, I would be remiss not to mention Amazon Prime.

00;35;00;26 - 00;35;01;11
Meagan
Like.

00;35;01;14 - 00;35;27;11
Marcie
Excuse pun, but the prime example of a paid program and I think, you know, Prime was one of the first kind of pay to joins and you know with common like 200 million members is obviously working. And I know that program has an extremely high retention rate. I think I remember hearing quoted that almost 50% of prime members are purchasing something at least weekly from Amazon.

00;35;27;11 - 00;36;01;12
Marcie
So it's working on that side because there's something very much psychological thought process. I think that members feel they should continue spending because, you know, down by having paid that membership fee, part of the success of Prime is do the just the wealth of rewards that members enjoy. You know, it's not only about one day delivery, it's also about, you know, same day grocery delivery in the markets that offer that you know, access to movies and TV shows through through Amazon Prime and Amazon music Prime for that matter.

00;36;01;15 - 00;36;12;16
Marcie
And those perks just really set a program apart. I think they really found a way to make them to sound like such an integral part of their members.

00;36;12;18 - 00;36;13;21
Meagan
Meaning.

00;36;13;23 - 00;36;25;25
Marcie
If not their daily lives, even outside of the context of purchasing product. So it really I think it just encourages members to stay loyal and and build that connection to Amazon.

00;36;25;28 - 00;36;37;17
Meagan
Yeah, think that's a very good example. I don't even think about it as a program anymore. I would never get rid of it because I love it so much. So yeah.

00;36;37;17 - 00;37;06;02
Lia
I actually ran a poll this morning to ask folks whether which of these is a loyalty program Netflix, Uber, Amazon Prime and Costco and the truth of the matter is it's a trick question. All four of these are quote unquote, loyalty programs because essentially loyalty has to reward its customers. And remember, rewards is not just hard rewards like cash back or points.

00;37;06;04 - 00;37;33;16
Lia
Netflix rewards you in relevance and in time savings and that you don't no longer have to get up off the couch, go to the movies, or borrow a video store to rent a movie, etc. So a reward is one. Recognition is is the second. So they recognize you personally, They know your name and they and they treat you differently from everyone else in the sense that they provide you with, again, relevance.

00;37;33;18 - 00;37;46;08
Lia
Relevance is being third and then having a relationship is the fourth. So in essence, all all four of those are and in and of itself loyalty, quote unquote, programs.

00;37;46;10 - 00;37;52;08
Meagan
It's crazy. Loyalty is everywhere. It's like taking over.

00;37;52;11 - 00;37;56;07
Lia
And so there's loyalty at the end of the day is all about data.

00;37;56;09 - 00;38;16;25
Meagan
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining me, both Marcie and Lia. This was a really fascinating conversation and I'm sure we could we could do a follow up to dive into even more specifics. But for now, thanks to everyone for listening. And we'll see you next week, right?