00;00;02;23 - 00;00;19;03
VO
Welcome the Dig In, the podcast brought to you by Dig Insights. Each week Jess Gaedeke chats with world class brand professionals to bring you the story behind the story of some of the most breakthrough innovations, marketing tactics and campaigns.

00;00;19;06 - 00;00;42;05
Jess
Well, welcome everybody, to Dig In. I'm Jess Gaedeke. I am CRO at Dig Insights. And I'm joined today by a longtime friend and client partner. I've been so excited about this conversation. So I'd like to welcome Oksana Sobol, who's the insights lead at the Clorox Company. And she brings a plethora of expertise of inspiration, energy and humor.

00;00;42;05 - 00;00;48;04
Jess
That's one of my favorite parts about you. So thanks so much for joining us today. I'm so glad you're here.

00;00;48;07 - 00;00;49;25
Oksana
Wonderful to be here, Jess.

00;00;49;28 - 00;00;54;05
Jess
So let's start by having you tell listeners who you are and a little bit about your background.

00;00;54;08 - 00;01;19;13
Oksana
Jess, you and I know each other for a long time across a bunch of different companies. Presently, I lead insights at the Clorox Company, building a faster, leaner and more consumer obsessed organization. Prior to that, I've had the good fortune of being able to rotate through a number of distinguished CPG companies, including doing work for Mondelez, Kraft Johnson and Johnson, Unilever, Procter and Gamble, many others.

00;01;19;20 - 00;01;45;26
Oksana
And that was either directly or as a consultant and later client services director for Nielsen Bases. So I can say that I have been very lucky to acquire both client side and agency side experience, and that has served me well. And then in the spirit of broadening and before coming over to market research, I started my career as a marketer in brand management, in new product development roles for almost ten years.

00;01;45;28 - 00;01;58;02
Jess
That's fantastic. And I love the consumer obsessed part of your description of your role at Clorox. It's just a fantastic ethos. So what do you love about what you do?

00;01;58;04 - 00;02;21;26
Oksana
Well, it is that very part. So it is the part about building the faster, leaner and more consumer obsessed organization. And I can say that it is fantastic to work for a company that has such a clear vision and be able to build the path to that vision. So the way my current role is different from any other I've had in the past is that really it's about systems design.

00;02;21;28 - 00;02;42;09
Oksana
It's about conceiving and building an entire ecosystem that has a strong pupil component, but then also a culture component process capability, and the list goes on. And so every day I have to think about where are we on our journey with each of our change initiatives individually, and then how is it all coming together?

00;02;42;16 - 00;03;03;01
Jess
Well, that's great. That's a wonderful introduction. So at this point, I'd like to dig in a little bit. And, you know, as you know, our listeners really crave inspiration from other leaders. And I think one of the best ways to inspire is to tell a story. And you were integral in the development and launch of a lot of things that you're at your career at Clorox.

00;03;03;01 - 00;03;17;26
Jess
But most recently the Clorox free and clear line of products. And that might seem a bit unexpected, a free and clear product from Clorox. But I would love for you to tell us about how that idea originated, what inspired it.

00;03;17;29 - 00;03;53;01
Oksana
So in consumer's mind, Clorox brand stands first and foremost for trust and for cleaning expertise. Nowhere did this come into focus more clearly for us than during the pandemic, when people trusted Clorox to safeguard their health. And so being trusted, I think, means also evolving with people's changing expectations. And so we know that now, especially for young families, that means offering cleaning power when you need it, while being gentle yet effective in situations when that is what's important to them.

00;03;53;03 - 00;04;12;26
Oksana
Like situations where you might have your kids and pets involved or where you were interacting with food contact surfaces, the job is just different in that case. We wanted consumers to have the right product for the right situation, and that's the origin of Clorox free and clear, and why it might feel a bit different and maybe slightly unexpected at first.

00;04;12;26 - 00;04;18;29
Oksana
But really it's the continuation of that trust during consumer trust.

00;04;19;01 - 00;04;35;27
Jess
It's just founded in such an important and critical connection there. And, you know, I hope I don't embarrass you, but I was looking up some of your your content that you've kind of put out there to the industry. And there's this quote that I have, which is that you thrive on change and novelty and weather in its absence.

00;04;35;27 - 00;04;53;05
Jess
And I just loved that sense. But I wanted to bring it up here because to derive that inspiration and to develop a product that does have such a deep meaning to consumers lives. Did you leverage any new tools or approaches or frameworks to kind of get that initiative off the ground?

00;04;53;07 - 00;05;19;21
Oksana
You know, new tools are always so exciting. Those are those are the shiny new toys. And and of course, there's no shortage of of them involved in developing an innovation especially. But the one I would like to emphasize here is just a very obvious yet I think surprisingly under leveraged one in market research these days and that is get out into the field.

00;05;19;23 - 00;05;54;25
Oksana
That is where the consumer is. That is where the retailer is. That is the real world with its power to surprise and inspire. And tools are a proxy to that at best. So there's to me, there's no substitute to being out there. And in this instance, the lightning bolt for me had one late Friday night standing in an aisle, and I was looking at the wall of laundry products and thinking, wow, nearly half of this product is now coming white packaging with some sort of a gentler formula.

00;05;54;28 - 00;06;17;18
Oksana
But then if you walk a few steps over into the cleaning aisle, that was not the case. The need was not well represented there. And so that's when I got home and started looking at the data. What does the data say to either invalidate or substantiate that hypothesis? What percent of various categories are now comprised by chapter versions of products?

00;06;17;20 - 00;06;45;04
Oksana
What do tools like our Need states, maps say? And then in turn, in terms of jobs to be done? What do we know about these frequent cleaning moments and unmet consumer requirements on those occasions? And that's when it all started coming together. But tools, to me should be in service of the hypothesis. One cannot find inspiration, ideas and answers in tools alone.

00;06;45;07 - 00;06;56;19
Jess
Yeah, I completely agree with that. And there's nothing like a Friday night inspiration. I love that you say you went home from the store and then looked at the data on a Friday night. So we're we're seeing your commitment right there on display. I love it.

00;06;56;23 - 00;07;22;21
Oksana
Well, isn't there something interesting, though, in terms of some of our best ideas come to us when we step away from the everyday? Yeah, because I think I think they are percolating there in some subconscious layer, but we are not listening to it because we are running, running, running five days a week. And it's really when, when you kind of step back and switch to something differently, when you can hear the, the ideas that we're trying to to breakthrough.

00;07;22;24 - 00;07;39;23
Oksana
So it's it's interesting that at least for me, I have my best ideas either on my run or my bike ride or when I when I'm able to just step back and and not think about work. But turns out that's when the good work ideas pop up.

00;07;39;25 - 00;07;56;12
Jess
I love that. And you need that space for that inspiration. So that's fantastic. Now, I'm sure bringing an initiative like this to market, it's not without its you know, challenges along the way. Did you face any barriers or challenges on on the journey of bringing this product to market? Did you have to pivot at any point?

00;07;56;14 - 00;08;27;01
Oksana
So I don't know if you would consider this a barrier per se, but but there was that kind of quirky moment, and that is that there isn't really a word in the world of household products that describes this consumer need. And so how do you speak even internally about going into a space which you cannot name? There are words like natural, although the meaning of that is not entirely clear either.

00;08;27;01 - 00;08;49;28
Oksana
And you'll get a myriad different definitions just by asking different consumers what natural means to them. And then the definition will further vary depending on what category you're talking about. And yet, on this occasion, it was important for us to understand that the set of the requirements that go with natural is not the same as the set of the requirements that go with this frequent occasion.

00;08;49;28 - 00;09;14;25
Oksana
When you want a product that's effective yet gentle. What consumer wanted is something that's great for frequent everyday masses. While trusted to be safe, a product they would feel good about using around their family and pads. And so thinking about it in those terms of this is the Clorox, you know, and trust it is a free and clear option off of the Clorox.

00;09;14;28 - 00;09;18;05
Oksana
And trust was became the path forward for us.

00;09;18;07 - 00;09;33;25
Jess
Yeah. It's so interesting that consumer language and you know, when there is not a combination of words to describe that meaning, it becomes a big marketing job, right? You have to educate and describe as you go along. So I'm sure that's not a small challenge either.

00;09;33;27 - 00;09;53;18
Oksana
And semiotics is just such a fascinating area of market research for me. And the queuing power that colors, shapes, images, font selections can have on influencing how the consumer perceives the product that you're trying to present to them.

00;09;53;21 - 00;10;01;19
Jess
Yeah, absolutely. So for this initiative, when did you know it was a success? Like, what was your milestone either personally or as an organization?

00;10;01;22 - 00;10;32;05
Oksana
Clark's free and clear line is new in market now. It consists of a compostable wipe, a multi-surface spray, and a sanitizing mist. What gave us confidence was hearing, I trust Clorox to offer me a product like that. I want a product like that from Clorox as something that can tackle anything from greasy food spills to stinky playroom messes while being powered by plant based ingredients and formulated without dyes bleaches ammonia.

00;10;32;08 - 00;10;41;03
Oksana
And so there again is that component of trust, which is so closely linked with the Clorox brand. And that was one of the defining moments.

00;10;41;05 - 00;10;49;10
Jess
Yeah, wonderful. And so with this launch and this, you know, initiative, what was your biggest takeaway from that experience?

00;10;49;12 - 00;11;17;12
Oksana
The best insights will come from this synthesis of everything around you and real world immersion is such an important component. This is where that signal is going to start coming from breaking through the noise. I felt that the best hypotheses are first inspired by the real world and then validated by the data. It's hard to find true inspiration in the data itself, not least because it's backward looking.

00;11;17;15 - 00;11;30;18
Oksana
So the best, in my opinion, are insights plus experience plus gut. So insights or facts or data is really one third of the formula for success.

00;11;30;20 - 00;11;56;18
Jess
So let's learn more about you as a leader. Oksana, I know that you are truly an authentic and genuinely inspiring leader to your organization and you've got a real impact to the industry. Now. You're involved in a lot of different teams and associations, so I'd love to learn. What is your most controversial or passionate either of those or totally fine opinion about the state of innovation or the state of building brands today?

00;11;56;21 - 00;12;45;15
Oksana
I think what's exciting about the times that we are in right now is the state of insight. Technology is finally approaching a point where we are able to start talking about the emergence of an insights stack similar to what we have seen was the evolution of marketing stack in the recent years. The two parts of that that seem to cause some controversy also, although it depends on who you ask, but the notion that the stack will be mature enough to put many of the research tools directly into the hands of business partners and I believe this is the direction that the industry will take over the coming years.

00;12;45;17 - 00;13;13;26
Oksana
If you think faster, leaner and closer to the consumer, which is the journey that we are on in Clorox, you actually want to reduce the distance between the decision maker and consumer insights, including being able to generate insights on demand and their own when that is appropriate. And the second part of that, I think it's it's not so much controversial as it is to be defined over time.

00;13;13;28 - 00;13;38;10
Oksana
And that is what is the right answer to the human machine collaboration component with I was Generative II, but I don't think this will be a question that will be settled for all because really human machine interface in all spheres of our lives is evolving right now and will continue to evolve and change. And insights is on that journey.

00;13;38;10 - 00;13;43;20
Oksana
That's really the broader arc of technology journey in our society.

00;13;43;23 - 00;14;07;04
Jess
Yeah, no, we had a really rich conversation a few weeks ago about this and I was I was struck by a couple of things. One is, you know, Parks to me has always been a very forward thinking organization as a from an insights perspective. And I'm so pleased to see there is some openness to put tools and technology into your business partners hands and to kind of remove some of that distance and gap.

00;14;07;04 - 00;14;31;09
Jess
I think that is very forward looking and I think you guys are are years ahead of some of your industry peers. But that dynamic of it can't just be the machine giving us information. There needs to be a human being that's interpreting and and consulting and learning and putting pieces of information together. I'm so glad to hear you say that because you in your role, I think, will continue to be very influential in the industry.

00;14;31;15 - 00;14;45;18
Jess
And I'd hate to get to a place where we feel like the machines can do it all because I just don't think that that's that that's a reality. And, you know, that's not why I'm in the industry. So I was just really inspired by our conversation a couple of weeks ago and glad to have you share that here today.

00;14;45;21 - 00;15;04;14
Jess
So you said earlier, you know, it's not just about new tools. That's not the the silver bullet in our industry. But what what types of new things have you started leveraging? Maybe it's something from your insights stack that you think is really having an impact to your business. Could you share some of those new things that are really working for you?

00;15;04;16 - 00;15;27;22
Oksana
From speaking with my colleagues in the industry, I think it's mostly a shared hypothesis that generative. I can unlock significant new things for our industry. And coming back to the importance of synthesis, I feel that will be one of the first frontiers. This is one of the areas where, Jenny, I can be tremendously helpful synthesizing trends and knowledge.

00;15;27;25 - 00;15;54;19
Oksana
And then I believe that significant advances are being made on both structured and unstructured data, but then also in places like ideation optimization. And so it will be interesting to see which of these areas emerge as clear use cases that see widespread adoption. And we are, of course, experimenting across across the spectrum and seeing seeing the benefits.

00;15;54;21 - 00;16;09;10
Jess
Yeah, exciting times for sure in our industry. So what's your hot take on the future of the categories that you operate in? And obviously Crocs has brands in so many different categories, so you might have to pick a favorite, but kind of what's your your take on what's to come?

00;16;09;12 - 00;16;34;08
Oksana
Well, here's a broader one, and maybe this is related to the future of shopping across many categories, as so many things seem possible right now, it's hard to not get carried away. For example, all machine customers, not just collaborators, but machine customers. How real is that? How close are we to that? I know that for me as a consumer, it is real enough already.

00;16;34;14 - 00;17;11;08
Oksana
My weekly shopping list is automated, so if someone wants to offer me, let's say, a new type of yogurt, they're talking to the wrong person. If they're targeting me with that communication, they should be talking to my digital assistant who already has decision making rights to put these products onto the shopping list. And then I saw the data that 70% of people who have adopted these types of digital assistants for grocery shopping are having similar experiences where they're their assistants are adding new items to their shopping list that they ended up liking and keeping there.

00;17;11;11 - 00;17;45;13
Oksana
So is this the era of machine to machine marketing? Is that the new thing that's coming? I don't I don't know. But it's interesting. It's interesting to watch and understand how different marketing would be if it's if it's not speaking to the cues that resonate with humans, but it's speaking to an algorithm. But it's like they say, prognosticating about the future is an ungrateful job because it never ends up arriving and it never becomes evenly distributed.

00;17;45;13 - 00;17;56;21
Oksana
It just keeps arriving and mutating, but it's never quite fully there is. I don't think it will ever be the case that all of the shopping is now automated. It will always be some kind of a hybrid.

00;17;56;23 - 00;18;18;15
Jess
See, this is why I love these conversations, because I hadn't even really thought about that. And I feel like you've just coined a new thing, but machine to machine. So instead of B to B, b to C, we're now Eminem and we're we're having these machines talk to each other and influencing decisions. It's just so interesting. And hey, whatever it takes to get my husband to try a new brand of peanut butter because.

00;18;18;18 - 00;18;46;18
Oksana
This could in this space. And that's another fascinating space where a concept like that, right? So think about we know that B2B customers apply a different set of criteria when they make their product selections compared to consumers. So it's already a step in a slightly different direction where you are trying to address more rational considerations. You're thinking about how you're differentiating from competitive offers on a different level.

00;18;46;20 - 00;19;02;14
Oksana
There are still humans and that plays a huge role. But but it's already we market to be to be differently from how we market to be to see. And this seems like a step even more in that direction.

00;19;02;17 - 00;19;20;00
Jess
Definitely. Definitely. Well, I love that hot take. Thank you for those thoughts. So we're going to move now to the final dig. This is really all about you as an individual, a consumer. So please share with us what you can here. But what's the last product or service you bought on impulse?

00;19;20;03 - 00;19;58;00
Oksana
You mentioned so you mentioned peanut butter and that took me down this path. So one of the food items that I crave most probably of all things oddly, is a cream puff. And that's probably because I just cannot reasonably justify buying and eating something like that. So it's off limits and therefore it's very attractive. But then this week I saw in the frozen section these things that look like just teeny tiny cream parts, and each of them is only 40 calories.

00;19;58;00 - 00;20;15;20
Oksana
And I thought that was fascinating because someone who designed that product had to understand their consumer. Target's tension really well to come up with something like that. So that was a rare item that I got without my digital assistance permission.

00;20;15;23 - 00;20;16;11
Jess
They didn't.

00;20;16;14 - 00;20;17;00
Oksana
Come.

00;20;17;02 - 00;20;18;20
Jess
For you. Okay. Yeah.

00;20;18;20 - 00;20;26;26
Oksana
Well, now I'm realizing that if she gets a hold of the transcript, she might get angry and the whole thing.

00;20;26;29 - 00;20;31;00
Jess
So she's a c d Do you have a name for your digital assistant?

00;20;31;03 - 00;20;43;04
Oksana
I do. You know, you raise a really interesting point. Do you have something like an Alexa, you, Siri and etcetera? He or she, do they have a special name?

00;20;43;06 - 00;20;53;12
Jess
So our household is not not one of those households. I think my daughter is starting to to talk to Siri. But yeah, I'm I'm not there yet. I'm not in that adoption phase.

00;20;53;16 - 00;21;05;16
Oksana
Okay. Well, do you have any other robots like a Roomba or some kind of other assistant that I'm sure your daughter is probably interacting with?

00;21;05;18 - 00;21;18;21
Jess
Yeah, Who knows what my teenager is doing. But yeah, yeah, that's our household. Hasn't yet adopted that. So tell me a category or a brand or a product that you could rationalize any price point for. Like it's just something that you must have in your life.

00;21;18;28 - 00;21;51;23
Oksana
Okay, So that would be for me, my mountain bike and, and again, to your point about machines, our characters in their lives, I now realizing that that's a hit, right? So my digital assistant to me is a C, but my mountain bike is a he for whatever reason and has a name also. So no price would be too high for just what it delivers in terms of well-being and enjoyment of life and the and enjoyment of nature and the company of of great people who are into similar hobbies.

00;21;51;25 - 00;22;02;16
Oksana
I feel that things that bring us joy and and wellness and connection, whether to nature or to humans or both, are the things that are very valuable.

00;22;02;18 - 00;22;15;29
Jess
Well, this dovetails nicely to my next question, which are We all know brands have distinct personalities. So if you can think of a brand that you would date and then maybe a brand that you would marry and it could be the same brand, but maybe not.

00;22;16;01 - 00;22;39;07
Oksana
On jazz, you're really getting me in trouble here, not just with my and my husband's. And not only will I be walked out of my house when I get there, I have a feeling that my suitcases will be standing in front of it as well. But I like how you made the point that people one might want to date and people one want to marry could be different kinds of people.

00;22;39;10 - 00;23;03;25
Oksana
So I guess a brand like restoration Hardware seems like a fun brand to date. So they would know or they seem like they would know the good places and the cool people and you would have to dress up to go out with them like big time. But then in terms of making our long term bet, you would have to be for me, someone more like IKEA.

00;23;03;27 - 00;23;12;19
Oksana
So more practical minded, adaptable, adventurous, but not too much. No nonsense, someone you can count on. And for the sense of humor.

00;23;12;21 - 00;23;26;29
Jess
So I love that that's I'm going to think of that in the next time I encounter each of those brands. But those are great ones. And then just finally, I think we can glean a lot from this conversation about how you'll answer this question. But what keeps you inspired at.

00;23;26;29 - 00;24;01;18
Oksana
Work in our line of work mutually? I think every day you meet a different question. It never gets old and then people are endlessly fascinating to study and yet never understand fully by by formal training and I think by mindset. I'm an economist and said the Joe goes bad economy. It's live in this parallel universe where people are smarter but meaner than they actually being.

00;24;01;20 - 00;24;08;13
Oksana
And insights. I actually really enjoy the real world where people are much nicer than economists allow and much quirkier.

00;24;08;16 - 00;24;27;26
Jess
Now that's fantastic. I love that contrast, but I also love that you bring that economic thinking to your job, and I can just sense your intellectual curiosity. I think that I'm sure your your reading and consuming things all the time that that help you learn and to grow. And I just appreciate that about you. And it's been so wonderful to have you here on the Dig In podcast.

00;24;27;26 - 00;24;35;05
Jess
So thank you for joining us. You're a real inspiration and I'm just so honored to be in your network assignment. So thank you for being here.

00;24;35;08 - 00;24;51;09
Oksana
It's been such a pleasure reconnecting Jass and going over some of these fun questions and congratulations to you on becoming the Chief revenue Officer and also the the kind of the double gig of hosting the podcast as well.

00;24;51;11 - 00;25;01;10
Jess
Making you busy, you know? But I love it. I love it that way. Well, thanks again for being here and thank you, everyone for joining us to talk again soon.

00;25;01;12 - 00;25;07;22
VO
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