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VO
Welcome to Dig In, the podcast brought to you by Dig Insights. Each week Jess Gaedeke chats with world class brand professionals to bring you the story behind the story of some of the most breakthrough innovations, marketing tactics, and campaigns.

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Jess
Hello, everybody. Thanks for joining us on the Dig In podcast. Today I am so happy to have a new friend of Dig Insights join us. The very talented Betsey Chung, who's a veteran global CMO. And we have a lot to learn from her today. So Betsey, thanks so much for being here.

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Betsey
Thanks, Jess. It's good to be here.

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Jess
Yeah. Let's start with an intro. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.

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Betsey
Sure. So thanks, Jess. I am Betsey Chung and I'm a digital transformation leader with quite diverse experience. So possibly one of the few global CMOs that started her career as a CFO and a PNL leader. And so I've had the pleasure to work with such great high growth companies, and most recently for the past six years, the EVP and Global CMO for TD Bank.

00;01;07;23 - 00;01;12;19
Betsey
Previously with BMO and with American Express.

00;01;12;22 - 00;01;27;05
Jess
It's a great background and we're going to hear a lot of lessons from that amazing tenure. But just a quick question, impromptu question to get us going. It's a Monday when we're recording this episode, and I'd love to hear what's one word you'd use to describe your week so far.

00;01;27;07 - 00;01;28;14
Betsey
it's only Monday, though.

00;01;28;17 - 00;01;32;17
Betsey
Inspiring. It's been very inspiring so far.

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Jess
Good. That's that's a wonderful way to start. So let's dig in. I'd love for you to tell us a story. Our listeners really do crave inspiration from other leaders, and we think one of the best ways to inspire is to tell a story. And you've been part of multiple organizations where customer experience was really core to the company's success and certainly core to the marketing strategy.

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Jess
American Express, BMO, TD Bank all celebrated brands in terms of delivering a great customer experience. So talk a little bit about how a company can be intentional about customer experience. You know, I would think that any services organization probably knows that customer experience is important, but how do you make it a core focus and really a part of the ethos of an organization?

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Betsey
It's a great question. So I always begin with vision and right through to operations. So it really does start from the vision. So at American Express, which is a renowned customer experience leader, the vision was always to be the world's most respected service brand. And that is when I had worked there and to walk in the halls and to see that as you walk through the lobby as a vision for the entire organization was really instrumental to the operations and the day to day of that organization.

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Betsey
You know, the other organizations I've worked with, you know, there could be a goal of winning J.D. Power, for instance, which is which is another aspiration. The third company was really around regaining customer experience leadership, and that was another aspiration. So depending upon where I've been, it's always been a core vision for the organization to have customer experience at the core of what we did.

00;03;24;07 - 00;03;59;16
Betsey
And then of course, it translates into normal operating rhythm. So your every day being was to strive to be, for instance, and that's the most respected service brand. And it wasn't really a banking brand and that wasn't the aspiration. So it was it was nice that the aperture was wider than that. And to be in the pursuit of service was something that really expanded our horizons in terms of working with with the brand like that.

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Jess
Yeah, it's so corn for that to be the North Star for an organization I think is really testament to, you know, keeping the customer at the heart of things. So did you use any new frameworks or tools? When you think about understanding and optimizing against, what are those drivers of the customer experience? Did you approach it in a novel way at any of those businesses?

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Betsey
Yeah, there were a few I would say, tools that were used, and it all ranges from the voice of the customer and really understanding that voice on a not only a daily basis, but nowadays with technology, you can really understand it in real time, right through to even personalization. So personalizing that experience through omni channel to every customer. And so as it really is to voice with the customer, a lot of times depending upon the organization, there were some measurement frameworks.

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Betsey
And as digital and mobile grew in terms of usage, that real time in the moment, customer feedback, we were able to really analyze that. And so so that's really around omni channel listening right through to personalization. So in a number of the organizations I worked in, we use personalization tools and in that piece you can really understand out of the content that goes out to the customer, how can I create thousands of permutations of content so that for me it's something different that for instance, for you that appears.

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Betsey
And so that was the range of personalization and, and call listening type and listening to the customer type of tools. There was also employee listening or colleague listening, which was really, really important. And I think that that's really fundamental to the ethos of the company, even down to, you know, I still remember at Amex, our CEO at the time when he did market visits, he would start with a customer story and then would always sit with the call center to do call listening.

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Betsey
And so that was really important because you gain through the side by side the employee listening part of it as well. And so there were a number of tools that really spanned both pillars.

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Jess
So important for leaders to take that sort of hands on approach. Right. I think that that's so important, especially as you're trying to develop personalization at scale.

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Jess
I think the closer your C-suite as the customer, the better. Right. But it's not easy to do. I'm sure there are some setbacks in executing against your customer experience strategy. What were some of the most memorable sort of bumps in the road and how did you overcome them when it comes to setting, you know, the customer experience at the forefront?

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Betsey
Yeah, there were always there's always it's never a smooth path. And so I still remember how, for instance, in each of these organizations it was really important to make sure that customer irritants were addressed. On a timely basis. And those that affect millions or thousands of customers in terms of scale and severity were the ones that you really need to get at. A lot of times it affects multiple parts of the organization. So many parts of organization need to be together at the same time to resolve it. And speed of resolution is always, always one of those bumps in the road. But, you know, the way that I believe that you really need to address it is through a multi dissimilarity approach. Where people get together and you're able to knock off a customer irritant quickly. And so so that the best approach I've seen is, is one where it's a team approach and it's a team sport. And so those are sort of the bumps in the road, but how we've been able to resolve them.

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Jess
Yeah, and those irritants is the term you've used. I think that's a really clever phrase for it. But those are those moments of friction right throughout the process where you're either going to gain customer loyalty or you're going to lose the customer and sort of delivering in those moments that matter is something we really believe in

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Jess
at Dig Insights, we do a lot of qualitative and quantitative research to uncover those irritants as well as the dividers and help brands figure out a strategy for how to deliver and that experience is so important to, to identify those areas of friction and to remove them. And how does a company know that they're delivering a great customer experience?

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Jess
What are some of the milestones that you have as a business or maybe some of the performance metrics outside of just straight customer satisfaction? How else do you know that you're delivering?

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Betsey
Yeah, it's a great question, and I always believe that it needs to be a really balanced scorecard across the board and not only from a customer experience perspective, but also the employee experience having a scorecard for that because it is through great employee experience that you can inevitably deliver a great customer experience. And so some of the factors that depending upon the organization that we really monitored work and it’s really depending upon the channel.

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Betsey
So overall there was whether you are on a Net Promoter Score type of metric or you are on more of a legendary experience metric and depending upon the organization, it was one where you really gave the voice to the customer and it's usually scored and so on the Net Promoter Score was an 11 point scale and then on other sort of more proprietary measures, it would be on a ten point scale.

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Betsey
For instance, that was only one item, but to really get to in the moment. So I always say there's in the moment feedback or touch points type of feedback, and then there's your relationship with the organization. And so that is relationship feedback and the touchpoint feedback are related, but often times in terms of the relationship feedback we gain that is sometimes lower in score to the touchpoint.

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Betsey
So a touch point could be when you withdraw money or if you deposit money into your bank account, those are touch points on how you feel about your organization that you bank with. That's the relationship and whether they're looking out for your best interest. That's a relationship piece. And sometimes sometimes that is a lower sort of results than how how that organization did at that particular point in time.

00;11;11;22 - 00;11;20;09
Jess
Yeah. It's interesting that the relationship between those two metrics and where there are gaps, I imagine that's a, you know, a gap you have to shore up as a brand.

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Betsey
Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting because, you know, having monitored this through so many different organizations, you know, sometimes premium solutions can drive, you think that having a higher price might drive lower customer loyalty. But what I found in the various organizations I've worked at is sometimes having a premium solution, but with a proper customer value proposition behind it will drive higher loyalty than the free solution or the no fee solution.

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Betsey
And so oftentimes, we found our premium solutions driving higher retention and higher customer experience results., than the more the one that's free or the ones that’s no fee.

00;12;15;18 - 00;12;28;13
Jess
Sure. Well, I think it's because the consumer's expectation is going to be higher when it is a premiumization offering. Right. And so when you can deliver on those higher expectations, there's more at stake for that customer experience.

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Betsey
Yeah, it's incredible because I've seen organizations like Amex look at what's traditionally other organizations called products, but they view it as customer value proposition and that really dictates your role in the organization. So if I'm responsible for a customer value proposition, then I'm really going to develop access and experiences so that it can justify a customer value proposition that is in keeping with the vision of the organization.

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Betsey
And so it was really interesting how different organizations associate things, whether it's a is it a solution, is it a customer value proposition or is it a product? And I think if it's a product, it's quite a narrow definition of what we do for the customer, because it's so much more than that in terms of developing the proposition.

00;13;32;14 - 00;13;49;28
Jess
Sure. No, it's the role that you're playing in that customer's life and that is so much more meaningful than a product. That's important. So what's the biggest takeaway that you have from your experience in leading brands with this customer experience at the core? What's the one learning you hope our listeners can take away?

00;13;50;00 - 00;14;24;12
Betsey
Yeah, well, you know what? I believe the buck stops with me. And in any organization you're with, I always believe that if we can adopt the same mentality, that the buck stops with me, then you're going to be getting a customer complaint or a piece of feedback from a customer or even to your colleagues. If it's in the pursuit of being the world's most respected service brand or whatever the vision is, then it's a piece of accountability that's super important.

00;14;24;14 - 00;14;48;17
Betsey
And so I started my career in finance, and even as the head of finance, I believe that I was in the pursuit of a great customer experience. And whatever I did as a head of finance, that has to be in pursuit of that. And sometimes people believe that only the front line that's responsible for customer experience, but that's so untrue.

00;14;48;17 - 00;15;25;14
Betsey
Because even in in a function with finance, it's incredibly important for, for me to have felt that I can impact the customer experience in some way, and I certainly can in my function. And so so yeah, I kind of like, I guess I can sum it up by saying that's the DNA of an organization that's really important. And so if we can all kind of adopt the the beacon of the buck stops with you, I believe, then you can really resolve things quickly for the pursuit of customer experience.

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Jess
That's a great lesson. I love it. Well, let's turn to you as a leader, as a thought leader in your industry and also in the organizations that you've led. What is your most passionate opinion about being a leader today?

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Betsey
Yeah, I guess my very passionate opinion is that it's incredibly important to stick up and advocate for your team or your colleague or your peer. And for those that don't have teams, it's it's just really important to be able to do that. And really it's I guess my most fulfilling times are when I can make a difference in someone's life.

00;16;07;13 - 00;16;08;03
Betsey
And it could

00;16;08;03 - 00;16;22;04
Betsey
be one person, it could be two people in your career, or it could be more than that. But if you're able to really make a difference and it's it's probably for me, one of the most fulfilling things that has happened in my career.

00;16;22;06 - 00;16;22;29
Betsey
And so I

00;16;22;29 - 00;16;40;23
Betsey
guess that's my personal belief and to be able to stare at myself in the mirror and say, you know what, I have advocated for people and I've kind of put my personal brand on the line for them, it's really, really important to me.

00;16;40;25 - 00;17;08;08
Jess
Yeah, I agree. It's important to me too. And I think one of the most rewarding things that I find as leader is when you know that the folks that I'm mentoring or I'm helping develop, when you can give them that confidence that they might be lacking at certain points in their career or points in the week, honestly, we all have our ups and downs, that give them the confidence to take risks and to put themselves out there, because it's really easy for me to say, right? Go do this, you can do it.

00;17;08;14 - 00;17;23;13
Jess
But for them to actually have that conviction and have that confidence, it's so rewarding to me when I see it play out. And I'm sure you've helped a lot of people in your career kind of find their way and find their voice, and that's got to be one of the most rewarding.

00;17;23;16 - 00;17;58;06
Betsey
Yeah, it's super rewarding and I think that that's one of the things that has cropped up more often than not over the years in my career. People ask, How do I find my voice? And especially this minority people like me who maybe English wasn't their first language and for me, English was my second language. I took years upon years of classes to really learn English, and it was not easy to find my voice and what I would practice.

00;17;58;09 - 00;17;59;17
Betsey
One of the things that I share with

00;17;59;17 - 00;18;25;26
Betsey
people when I practice was I would write down in meetings, I would write down what I might want to say and I would try to find the opportunity to say it. And in a voice that was hopefully clear and strong and that took lots and lots of practice and didn't come day one or day two. It probably came years after that.

00;18;25;28 - 00;18;26;09
Betsey
And it

00;18;26;09 - 00;18;42;28
Betsey
was it was just you're right, it's just finding the courage to say something that I believed in. And so that that took a while, but it's due to maybe the thanks of so many leaders that have helped me along the way.

00;18;43;00 - 00;18;43;28
Betsey
People like yourself.

00;18;43;28 - 00;19;12;10
Betsey
And what you're doing for your team, and to give me the confidence to be able to just speak up. It has been a big deal for me. There's been so many great leaders that believed in me and gave me a chance in each of the organizations that I've worked on and just eternally grateful for them and will always remember them. And so that's how leaders gain the followership

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Betsey
they do as they move from one organization to another.

00;19;17;15 - 00;19;36;23
Jess
I agree. And yeah, bravo to all those people that that did help you find your voice. And and you need to allow space for all different types of personality and skill sets and experience to, you know, to have that opportunity to share especially, gosh, I remember some of the first senior leadership team meetings that I would have been in.

00;19;36;23 - 00;19;50;09
Jess
I did exactly what you said. I would write out what I wanted to say, try to find my moment, and probably sounded nervous as I was speaking up. And it's funny to think back because I obviously come a long way, but it's so important to to be given that space.

00;19;50;09 - 00;19;52;19
Jess
So that's a wonderful

00;19;52;21 - 00;20;03;16
Jess
story and lesson to learn from. So that’s you as a leader, really memorable things there and helpful. In terms of your expertise and the financial industry what's your hot take

00;20;03;16 - 00;20;05;15
Jess
on the future of the financial industry.

00;20;05;18 - 00;20;09;02
Jess
Like, man, there's a lot going on. Where do you see things heading?

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Betsey
Yeah, it's so incredible. It's just it's a global phenomenon right now. As you know, rising interest rates. Consumers are faced with variable rate mortgages or they’re faced with how do I pay my rent. This is a common question. So I really, really, really think that the time is now for customer advocate. And if you are a financial institution, financial education is so important because the just common question of how do I pay my rent, that is a big deal.

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Betsey
So do I rent, do I buy? If I buy, how can I afford to buy? Where do I buy? And that's really important at this point in time. So these solutions include pricing and financial education so that you can choose the customer advocate. And during a time of rising interest rates, this is really becoming important. So that's really what I see as an opportunity for many players in the marketplace and it probably doesn't even stop at financial institutions. Like I think that that probably goes to say like the same need is maybe needed in retail and Consumer Packaged Goods. in technology. Truly, truly to be that customer advocate and to be able to provide the content that's needed to consumers

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Betsey
at this point in time is needed full stop.

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Jess
Yeah. No, I agree. I think that's very meaningful across industries and that ability to truly understand your consumer so that you can meet them where they are. And certainly in many industries, you know, educating as you go is really important to be a trusted advisor, right? Well, let's turn to the final dig. This is all about you as a consumer, as a person. So feel free to take off the professional hat if you wish for a moment. I'd love to know what's the last product or service that you bought on impulse?

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Betsey
Yeah, so I just bought a tennis racket and that was last week. I've gotten back into tennis recently and so I bought a tennis racket. It was just the frame without, it wasn't even strung. So it was one of those things. And I said, You know what, I'm going to do it.

00;22;40;22 - 00;23;00;12
Betsey
I've got to get back into it. And so it was it was a local small business, but I bought it down the street and just really nice to support them. They've been in business like 40 years and so it's nice to see small business owners really get back out of it and thrive really.

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Jess
So that's great. So tennis, you're not into the pickleball craze. What do you make of that?

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Betsey
Oh my gosh, I'm really into pickleball as well. That was my former tennis racket and I'm so confused when I go between the two sports. So I was just at pickleball this morning where I hit it like a tennis. I would I hit it so hard. It felt like I'm smashing the ball. And that's totally not the strategy of pickleball.

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Betsey
You have to be really skillful and you have to place the ball properly. So I am into the tennis and the pickleball.

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Jess
My son is 12 and he almost got kind of sidelined at tennis lessons because he was essentially approaching it like a baseball bat, you know, and it was just kept flying over. We had to put him in time out a little bit. So tell me a category or a brand or maybe even a product that you could rationalize any price point for.

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Jess
You just have to have it in your life.

00;23;58;17 - 00;24;31;09
Betsey
So we've already said that I am a big fan of sports and my favorite sport is actually basketball. I can't play it, but I can justify the price of going to a basketball game. And so I love live sports and I can like - my daughter's learning economics and she just happened to cover the Lakers in her projects. And I was a pro at giving her advice on the Lakers and the elasticity of the pricing of Lakers tickets.

00;24;31;10 - 00;24;42;26
Betsey
I said you know they're a winning team, they got LeBron James, they're going to be fine in terms of pricing for those tickets.

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Jess
That’s amazing. I too love sports. I'm a big NFL fan and we're recording this the day after the divisional round for playoffs.

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Betsey
So I'm sure you're preparing for that.

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Jess
My gosh, my voice is kind of lacking today because of all the cheering I was doing. But yeah, couple couple more games to go. So brands have distinct personalities. What's a brand that you would date and perhaps what’s a brand that you would marry and could be the same brand, but maybe not.

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Betsey
So my husband would say because I dated and married him. We met when I was 20 years old. So I think I would say the Four Seasons in terms of date and marry. And as you know, of course, it's actually Canadian originated, which I didn't know that. So it's it was originally it was in Canada and basically now it’s a global brand, the customer experience, it is just amazing.

00;25;44;13 - 00;26;20;00
Betsey
I just really believe as I, as I've been in various properties, just, you know, perusing, sometimes I just felt I’ll eat, I’ll eat there or something like that. You can't afford to stay there and so you kind of go and kind of just experience what it's like there. And so I really like it. I think they do such a good job, and I didn't realize that it wasn't all owned by the same sort of the operations of the Four Seasons is sometimes only separately, depending upon the country I had heard.

00;26;20;02 - 00;26;48;07
Betsey
And so to make sure that that's a consistent customer experience from one property to another is a big deal. And when you phone them on the call center, I feel like they're they're really great down to the people who clean the rooms. And so every single touch point has been really great. And so I really I think the best one that I feel I could date and marry.

00;26;48;09 - 00;26;49;03
Jess
Yes.

00;26;49;05 - 00;27;03;24
Jess
Well, it's a nice tie back to customer experience because you mentioned those moments that matter along that journey. So good way to wrap it up. So finally, what keeps you inspired at work and in life? Leave us with some inspiration, Betsey.

00;27;03;26 - 00;27;36;16
Betsey
Ohh well, you've just inspired me personally, so I think that’s to that point, what really inspires me is just meeting new people and my new people become just people that in my inner circle and to have that circle be wider and wider, wider through time, has been such a pleasure and a privilege to be able to meet people that have a great shared vision and that truly care to make a difference.

00;27;36;19 - 00;27;51;22
Betsey
And that's really what inspires me. And I think that that's why you and I are on this podcast together and just talking about things in general and feeling a shared passion for something.

00;27;51;25 - 00;28;04;10
Jess
Yeah, well, absolutely. Right back at you. Thank you so much for joining us on the Dig In podcast. We are so pleased that you’re a new friend of Dig’s and we hope to be seeing a lot more of you. So thank you so much for being here.

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Betsey
Thanks, Jess. I appreciate it.

00;28;06;11 - 00;28;10;17
Jess
Until next time. Thanks, guys.

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VO
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00;28;15;12 - 00;28;16;17
VO
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