00;00;02;23 - 00;00;18;24
VO
Welcome to Dig In, the podcast brought to you by Dig Insights. Each week Jess Gaedeke chats with world class brand professionals to bring you the story behind the story of some of the most breakthrough innovations, marketing tactics, and campaigns.

00;00;18;27 - 00;00;42;06
Jess
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Dig In podcast. I'm Jess Gaedeke and I hope today that you are caffeinated. I hope your ears are open because we've got a major thought leader from the technology industry today. So buckle up. You're in for quite a ride. Today I am joined by Rushit Mashru, Senior Director, AI Safety, Cybersecurity at Google, which is kind of an important job.

00;00;42;06 - 00;00;45;20
Jess
So I am so thrilled to have you here today. Rushit, thanks for being here.

00;00;45;26 - 00;00;50;08
Rushit
Thank you for having me, Jess and the team at Dig In, really looking forward to this conversation.

00;00;50;14 - 00;00;54;06
Jess
Yeah, well, let's dive into your background, Tell the listeners a little bit about yourself.

00;00;54;09 - 00;01;25;23
Rushit
Okay. So let's start on the personal front. I like to think I’m the uber dad to two beautiful daughters, 12 and 6 years old. I think my day job is different than my evening jobs, which is that I'm shuttling them between classes. I was born and raised in India and was born in a middle class business family where values of hard work and feeling gratitude for what you have and loving family members around you we always instilled in us very early on.

00;01;25;26 - 00;02;04;16
Rushit
And as my dad would like to say, you know, always leave things better than you found them. And that's a value that I've carried with me over the years, whether it's my personal relationships, whether it's work, whether it's the encounters you have as you go around the world. And that's something that I cherish. On the professional side, you know, I've had the opportunity to be involved in a bunch of very interesting brands over the years, whether it was, you know, the head and skin care category at Unilever, you know, MTV, the brand back in the day, you know, Google, YouTube, Android, and then more recently, like you called out AI safety and

00;02;04;16 - 00;02;13;23
Rushit
cybersecurity. So been a marketer for a long period of time over two decades, and I'm also an advisor to a bunch of startups here in the Bay Area and in India.

00;02;14;00 - 00;02;22;21
Jess
That's so cool. First of all, your personal background is really inspiring, but the professional background, you've worked on MTV? That is so rad. I love that.

00;02;22;23 - 00;02;25;03
Rushit
Don't judge me. It definitely was cool back then.

00;02;25;05 - 00;02;39;08
Jess
It was really cool. I was I was there. I'm dating myself, but I was there. So let's kick off with an impromptu question. So I'm going to ask you one that, you know, you're a techie, so maybe it's not totally fair, but what's the most used app on your phone that's not for work purposes?

00;02;39;09 - 00;02;58;13
Rushit
I would think Mindspace is the one that I use a lot. So it definitely is something that I enjoy and use that my bet is outside of that I would think, you know, YouTube is the only other large app that I use from an entertainment perspective. So those two would be the most used apps.

00;02;58;14 - 00;03;20;14
Jess
There you go. Okay. Well, you're on brand there, so. Okay, Well, let's dig in. So as you know, Rushit, our listeners they really do crave inspiration from other leaders. And I think one of the best ways to inspire is to tell a story. And you were integral in the launch of Google Pay in a number of international markets, including India, Singapore and Japan.

00;03;20;17 - 00;03;29;18
Jess
And I'd love for you to go to the beginning of this. How did this idea originate? What made these markets really so ripe for an app like Google Pay?

00;03;29;23 - 00;03;58;23
Rushit
That's great. I think I'll have to take you guys back to 2015 in that case, which is when, you know, Google Pay launched in markets like India, Singapore, subsequently and then Japan. Our foundational piece was asking ourselves the question of why does the world really need out of the payments app? Right? And, you know, when you think about technology and all the advancements that it's made in terms of simplifying our lives, you can think about Android and smartphones or maps and navigating the world in that sense.

00;03;58;25 - 00;04;19;06
Rushit
And technology still foundationally changed the way we think about these things. But when you think about matters with money, right, and the relationship that humans share with money, it's still extremely complex. And back then, you know, 70% or slightly more of all global transactions were still made in cash. So you could imagine cash was the predominant way of making payments.

00;04;19;06 - 00;04;37;12
Rushit
And by the way, you know, while that number has come down over the years, you know, you could still look at very, very advanced countries like Japan and Germany, where the cash is still is a prominent way of making these payments. And these are countries that have made great strides in both technology and an industrial revolution, but cash remains a strong form of payment.

00;04;37;12 - 00;05;01;02
Rushit
And so, you know, as we talk about India, remember, this is not just to say an India challenge, but it exists in large parts of the world. So certainly that. Right. And as people are going about that, I think, you know, if you just look at all the payment buttons, that's one that also across websites and apps, you know all of them largely look the same blue for some reason and no differentiation or personalization whatsoever.

00;05;01;02 - 00;05;23;13
Rushit
Right. And every payment player promises what we call fast, more secure payments. Literally, that's become the foundational principle on which the whole category is based today. And you know, with that as the context what is unique about markets like India was that, you know, the government of India was also looking at the problem and saying, listen, this reliance on cash isn't healthy.

00;05;23;19 - 00;06;00;25
Rushit
We need to move people towards the digital forms of payment. And they launched something called UPI or the United Payments Interface. And the way to think about that platform is that it's really facilitating real time payment rails in a manner that you could build an app on top of that, get users to connect their bank accounts to it, and pay any user that is connected to the app ecosystem and not just users but merchants and businesses as we go about and literally these payments are made in real time, which is, you know, in a few seconds you see a notification on your device that tells you the payments are being sent or received and it doesn't

00;06;00;25 - 00;06;24;27
Rushit
have to be through a phone number or an email. You can easily scan a QR code and we ask ourselves the question of what is the purpose of Google Pay and how will we really go to solve for human needs. And the purpose had to be defined in the human truth, right, and we wanted to move away from this commoditization of thoughts and the functionality of making a payment to truly making it an emotional experience.

00;06;25;00 - 00;06;46;19
Rushit
And for us, the challenge was shifting user behavior from cash, which is such a straightforward way of making digital payments and has years of tradition rooted in it. Lots of human ego and societal constructs, and equally has tax implications for both merchants and individuals as you think about moving from cash to digital payments. So really that is the context in which we were operating.

00;06;46;22 - 00;07;10;06
Rushit
And then we said, listen, how do we identify our focus from foundational need of understanding humans and then interaction with technology, but equally the relationship that humans share with money. And at the foundational level we said all humans have immense potential, literally unlimited potential and technology is only an enabler. But all of us also equally need an opportunity for that potential to be utilized.

00;07;10;08 - 00;07;31;03
Rushit
But if you don't have the opportunity to scale your potential, all things fail. It was very easy to quickly see that humans enjoyed this really funny relationship with money, right? And they truly believe that money and the relationship with that and the understanding of it can either accelerate those opportunities or completely decelerate you know where their lives could be and that is what we wanted to be sensitive to.

00;07;31;10 - 00;07;47;04
Rushit
So looking at these two aspects of human's understanding of technology and the need for opportunity, but equally to the relationship with money, we set our focus needs to be the ability to unlock economic opportunity for users and businesses by making money really simple, helpful and accessible for all.

00;07;47;07 - 00;08;16;04
Jess
It's just incredible and it's grounded in such a poignant insight. And so I always sound a little naive when I say things like this to you, but it still strikes me just how powerful it is for Google to be, you know, pursuing this intention of unlocking economic opportunity for people, human beings in these markets. It's just I'm always struck by the scale at which something like an app can actually change the world, you know?

00;08;16;07 - 00;08;36;28
Jess
So I just I know I always sound very fangirl when I say stuff like that, but it's just it's really incredible and just so meaningful when you think about it. So you're going to market in these new international markets. Did you have to leverage any new ways of thinking, new tools, new approaches like tell us how you did some of that work to get there.

00;08;36;28 - 00;08;56;02
Rushit
Yeah, I mean, you know, the point that you made, Jess, which is, you know, when you embark on a large mission and the purpose of, you know, truly impacting people's lives and changing the relationship with money, it comes with a tremendous amount of responsibility. But the complexity in India came through the sheer scale of the market.

00;08;56;04 - 00;09;33;10
Rushit
It was obviously brought in tremendous amount of potential, but equally, the effort to shift behavior was monumental. I think from the very start, we understood that our jobs weren't going to just create yet another app and copy a Western digital wallet. It wouldn't work. And we had to pull that out of the door very quickly. But really think about building up an app in a service from ground up, looking at these foundational pieces and user insights, looking at how we would design the app so that we could truly meet the mission and the purpose of solving and making money simple, helpful and accessible to all and drive our growth efforts from

00;09;33;10 - 00;09;56;24
Rushit
that perspective. And, you know, whether it meant thinking about the languages in which this app would present itself or just the interface which needed to be more visual versus complex menus, given that you wanted to reach a large spectrum of people with different literacy levels. But equally think about the benefits and the differentiation that an app like this would provide, which was free, instant and seamless money transfers.

00;09;56;29 - 00;10;05;24
Rushit
Whether you're making the transfer to an individual or to a business and then creating the economic opportunity. So really those were those are some of the things we thought about.

00;10;05;27 - 00;10;33;10
Jess
Yeah. And I mean, I love that. And it certainly aligns with how we think about things here at Dig Insights, which is you need to immerse yourself and understand that contexts in which your consumers are going to be interacting with your product. And so for you, it was about seeing, you know, boots on the ground, basically understanding how the users were, you know, evaluating different alternatives for how to exchange currency, etc., and really immersing yourself in that experience.

00;10;33;10 - 00;10;47;08
Jess
Because it's one thing to develop a bunch of features that you think might be compelling, but if you don't understand that real context in which the user will be using it, then you're going to be you're going to miss the mark. Does that resonate with you.

00;10;47;10 - 00;11;11;26
Rushit
100 percent. And I think, you know, across and you see this across many products like Google where, you know, foundationally, we talk about this is, you know, you need to root yourself and understand the users and find that always the triggers that lead to the shift in behavior. And, you know, when when you map that and pair that with a deeper understanding of the product and how it results with these unmet needs and you put the two together, that's when magic happens.

00;11;11;26 - 00;11;19;29
Rushit
And and that's really been the foundational pieces of all we think about, you know, all products at Google. So Google Pay wasn't any different from that perspective.

00;11;20;06 - 00;11;29;05
Jess
So it couldn't have been easy, the whole thing, right? You had to face some barriers or some setbacks as you went to market. So what were some things that you had to course correct along the way?

00;11;29;08 - 00;11;52;08
Rushit
You know, any payments app is an outcome of network effects. I mean, you need more users onto the app or merchants to be excited to join it. You need a large spectrum of merchants across online or offline so that users can make all their payments to a payment app and not some of them because it's hard for users to like have, you know, three or four payment apps so that, you know, you make some payments to one and the others to others.

00;11;52;08 - 00;12;19;23
Rushit
Think about banks, they care about new customer acquisition. I mean, can we become a true channel for banks to get new customers on in their fold or for merchants, can we truly drive greater loyalty and stickiness so that they could repeat customers coming through? Or from a user perspective, can we make sure that it's easier for them to identify which stores are really going to accept Google Pay as a payment system and then as they make the payments through this preferred method of driving, you know, transactions can be rewarded for that.

00;12;19;23 - 00;12;23;12
Rushit
So we started thinking about that ecosystem and creating value from that perspective.

00;12;23;14 - 00;12;38;13
Jess
I gotta tell you, it doesn't sound complex at all. Just kidding. That was supposed to be my swing at sarcasm, but there's like a lot of moving pieces there. It's pretty incredible that you guys were able to track through all of that. Tell us about your just your biggest takeaway. Obviously there's a lot that you shared and a lot you learned.

00;12;38;19 - 00;12;40;19
Jess
What is your biggest takeaway from that experience?

00;12;40;21 - 00;13;02;24
Rushit
It is people behind the technology that make things work. And at the end of the day, that that product is also meant for people to use it on a regular basis. So I think my biggest learning is being that a small and mighty motivated team of individuals can create magic. You just need to create a common sense of purpose, empower them to act like owners, and I truly mean owners of the business and not employees of an organization.

00;13;02;29 - 00;13;33;04
Rushit
And then you could imagine that they would move mountains and you know, getting that was important to us, which is why, you know, leaning in on to the purpose from an app design perspective was important, but equally to motivate ourselves on a daily basis when things are going great, you obviously feel awesome about it. But even when things are not looking so great, you always look back at the focus and I think the second part is, you know, as much as we talk about the product market fit and it seems like a formula that you can apply and things would work well and it truly needs a lot of tinkering before

00;13;33;04 - 00;13;54;03
Rushit
you get there. And you know, very often as technology brands, we love talking about billions of users. But I think the challenge that lies both with startups and large businesses is that we try and build for everyone, right? Instead, I would rather focus on building for a small set of users and customers that truly are going to be impacted through your products.

00;13;54;06 - 00;14;01;10
Rushit
You are truly going to solve for an unmet need or an untapped need, and it can then become the product that they can't live without.

00;14;01;10 - 00;14;20;01
Jess
Well, tremendous lessons and so many pieces that I'm sure any brand professional can learn from that and put that into action. So thank you for that story. So I'd love to turn now to you as a thought leader in your industry and certainly in your organization. But I also want to just make sure everyone understands.

00;14;20;01 - 00;14;37;16
Jess
I'm asking you what your personal viewpoints are on the topic of AI so want to be clear that you're not representing any opinions of Google right now or any other company. You really just giving me your down low and your point of view. And given your current role, you certainly know more than most about the impact of AI in our daily lives.

00;14;37;16 - 00;14;51;18
Jess
And for brands, it really provides the opportunity to deliver a personalization at an unprecedented scale. I'm curious, what are some of your more passionate points of view on the topic of personalization through AI?

00;14;51;18 - 00;15;13;06
Rushit
Jess, it's a really good question. Personalization and AI are hot topics, but again, I just want to state that anything that I say today are my personal views through my experience and don't represent the company's views and just being clear about that. I think today users expect apps to recommend products or services that are aligned with their individual interests.

00;15;13;08 - 00;15;40;14
Rushit
It could be suggesting enjoyable content or providing the relevant and timely nudges that enhance the overall product experience to thrive in this kind of, you know, dynamic landscape. I think developers need to reimagine how they grow, engage and retain the users. Even today, many aspects of Internet experiences still rely on traditional targeting methods based on low quality signals such as location device that the user uses or the time spent on the product.

00;15;40;16 - 00;16;06;16
Rushit
These methods often lead to general assumptions about certain cohorts, and largely based through that to a larger section of cohorts, thereby diluting personalization. With AI and the ability to process large amounts of data and see patterns that were hard for humans to see before, it provides an opportunity to distinctly target every single individual using the product. And I call this the cohort of one in my recent article that I've just published on personalization

00;16;06;16 - 00;16;17;23
Rushit
with AI. The concept of cohort of one takes into account the specific interest preferences and behaviors of every individual user so that they feel uniquely seen, understood and valued.

00;16;17;29 - 00;16;26;10
Jess
So I'm really curious about how brands should be thinking about personalization at different parts of the funnel or the consumer journey. Can you talk to me about that?

00;16;26;15 - 00;16;53;02
Rushit
Yeah, I mean, you know, personalization as has often been seen as a mid funnel activity, you know, typically wanting to convert users from doing one action or the other, like moving from free to paid services or buying more products from your cart. And traditionally this has been a great starting point because to my own work at Google, I've seen that a mere 5% increase in retention can lead to over 25% increase in profitability.

00;16;53;05 - 00;17;19;17
Rushit
However, AI now provides an opportunity to reimagine personalization through the full funnel right from activation to engagement to retention and even monetization. But all of this should start with identifying a clear business objective, whether it's new market expansion, lowering operational cost, improving profitability, and then having clear metrics to support that business objective. Once those two are clear, you can apply personalization to all aspects of the funnel.

00;17;19;20 - 00;17;36;28
Rushit
Let's take an example of the top of the funnel. When you're thinking about activating or acquiring a user today, typically a user would go to an app store and download an app from that and you have about the top three screens that are all same for every user that goes on that but it doesn't have to be the case.

00;17;37;00 - 00;17;55;12
Rushit
I as a user might be attracted to different value propositions than someone else, and thereby the ability to personalize those screens can increase their chances of app downloads. Similarly, on the onboarding experience, you could have an assistant that would ask you a few personal questions about what, what is, why are you here and what is the need for the app and the service you are using.

00;17;55;20 - 00;18;15;23
Rushit
And based on that, those answers you could personalize the entire onboarding journey for them. And then when you move down the funnel on to engagement, you could then expose them to the right set of features that are relevant to them and help them discover those features without having to stumble upon them after multiple loops. And on retention, you could build a more personalized loyalty program.

00;18;15;25 - 00;18;33;19
Rushit
You could identify the right set of merchant partners that are likely to attract me versus, Jess, just in your case, you might be attracted to a different set of merchant partners, and that's when personalization comes in and the holistic understanding of that user through the cohort of one allows you to do that. Equally, this does not stop at just retention.

00;18;33;24 - 00;18;51;28
Rushit
Your check out experiences could be personalized, whether it's bundling in the right set of products that lead to greater conversions or higher value of the cart or even, you know, post checkout experiences of delivery and tracking. And you have just some of the examples of how how brands and app developers can use personalization across the board.

00;18;52;00 - 00;19;19;14
Jess
Yeah, I really found this to be one of the most compelling parts of the article that you published and thinking about how to deliver personalization and what that really means to the user or a consumer in each of those touchpoints. So I would encourage all of our listeners who are in, you know, brand leadership positions, take a read of that article, but also just really listen to what Rushit just said because it really gives you some helpful thinking points of your own, you know, consumer journey understanding.

00;19;19;14 - 00;19;34;21
Jess
And of course, Dig is always happy to help there with that understanding as well. So I'm going to ask you a question which feels a little bit like the meaning of life question in your industry, but I'd love to hear what is your hot take on the future of AI?

00;19;34;23 - 00;19;57;24
Rushit
Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't have a hot take on the future of AI except the fact that everything we know as of today is likely to change. I mean, think about some of the earlier technological revolutions that have happened, the shift from desktop to mobile and the entire mobile Internet. You saw a very many different set of use cases come to life, things that we didn't even imagine or potentially can't live without.

00;19;57;24 - 00;20;22;02
Rushit
Today, there were a whole set of new set of developers that came into the fold that was previously developing apps and services for devices, and that created a whole ecosystem and different business models as the way we see that today. And equally users and have started interacting with digital technology in ways that we haven't imagined in the past.

00;20;22;04 - 00;20;41;04
Rushit
You know, think about how we, how we make payments today or how we think about fintech or how we think about, you know, traveling around the world. All of those experiences have changed because of some of these revolutionary pieces. And I think the combination of personalization with the AI is going to bring in a lot of rethinking in all aspects of our journey.

00;20;41;07 - 00;20;52;28
Jess
Okay, We're going to get to the final dig. This is all about you as a person, as an individual. Feel free to take off your professional hat if you wish, and just kind of answer from the heart. So what's the last product or service you bought on impulse?

00;20;53;03 - 00;21;16;23
Rushit
Just going back to the values that I was instilled and brought up and coming from a middle class family, I think all approaches is well thought through and I still carry that. But but I'm impulsive when it comes to shoes. So I think my last impulse buy was this pair of Nike Blazer Low Vintage 77 shoes which are just something that I saw an image of and just fell in love.

00;21;17;00 - 00;21;18;26
Rushit
So that's been my last impulse purchase.

00;21;18;29 - 00;21;35;28
Jess
So cool, so you’re a sneaker head I didn't know that about you. It's good to know now what's a category or brand that you could really rationalize any price point for? And, you know, this is within the context of what you just shared, that every purchase is well thought through. But what are some that you just feel like they've earned the premium.

00;21;36;05 - 00;22;03;15
Rushit
You know, I'm naturally attracted to brands that serve a larger purpose given the work that I do. And you know, truly products that connect with users in an authentic way. So some of the greatest brands that drive phenomenal amount of loyalty with customers you know transcend this boundary of price in many ways and to a certain degree there's enough amount of justification of the value versus the price on that.

00;22;03;15 - 00;22;09;07
Rushit
So Patagonia has been one such brand to me as I think about jackets and outerwear.

00;22;09;10 - 00;22;20;04
Jess
Yeah, that's a good one that really lives it's equities. I love that. And brands have distinct personalities. What's a brand that you might want to date and maybe one that you'd want to marry? And those don't always have to be the same brand.

00;22;20;04 - 00;22;49;13
Rushit
In my personal introduction, I missed out calling the fact that I've been happily married for 17 years, and I'm not sure my wife would want me to give this answer. So but if there was one brand that I think I've found, you know, just just leveraging and looking at the values of leaving the place or things better than how we found them, I think Ben and Jerry's does a phenomenal job of that over the years and it could truly be that brand or the taste of the ice cream bar or just because I had one last week.

00;22;49;13 - 00;22;54;20
Rushit
So any of those factors could be contributing to that. But I truly think Ben and Jerry's does a great job of that.

00;22;54;23 - 00;23;01;18
Jess
And be a good lifelong partner for sure. So finally, just to close us out, what keeps you inspired at work?

00;23;01;20 - 00;23;23;11
Rushit
Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm a sucker for problems and, you know, when there’s chaos, I love jumping in and solving for one so, so, so really like solving for real world problems with technologies, you know, that's a sport that inspires me and that's what that's my happy place and, and the ability to truly make a difference in people's daily lives.

00;23;23;11 - 00;23;28;04
Rushit
Right. And and it goes back to the to the values that are dear to me. So that is my happy place.

00;23;28;10 - 00;23;43;05
Jess
Well, it's a good place to be. And I'm so glad that you get to experience that in your work life is tremendous. This has been such a wonderful conversation and super thought provoking, informative, all the things that we love to hear. So thank you so much for being here and sharing your stories and your wisdom.

00;23;43;07 - 00;23;46;10
Rushit
Please, thank you for having me and I really enjoyed this conversation.

00;23;46;13 - 00;23;50;22
Jess
All right, guys, until next time. Thank you.

00;23;50;24 - 00;23;55;28
VO
Like what you heard? Share the inspiration or head to diginsights.com to learn more about what we do.