Hilton Barbour on Empathy in Remote Working, Aligning Strategy & Corporate Culture, and The Great Resignation
Ian: Hi, I'm Ian, co-founder of Dig Insights and president of Dig's Innovation Insights Platform Upsiide. Welcome to Dig In. Dig In is the place to stay up to date on what's happening in the world of innovation, research and technology, to find inspiration from today's business and innovation leaders, and to properly dig into hot topics that matter for consumer brands right now and when applicable, we'll bring our own research to that conversation.
Ian: Hilton Barbour, Welcome back. So great to talk to you again. Hilton is an expert in marketing, but also an expert in organizational culture and change. And this is the right time to connect with you because, boy, we're all going through a lot of change. Thanks so much for talking to me today, Hilton.
Hilton: Ian, it's always a pleasure. I mean, I'm looking outside my office window, my home office window. It is snowing profusely in Canada and it's -20 degrees. What a perfect time to talk about corporate culture and the new realities of work.
Ian: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, for those people who hadn't heard our last podcast or the other times that we've spoken, you want to get again, just a quick background on your view of what company culture is because I think it's a good grounding for this conversation.
Hilton: Sure. I mean, I always sort of jockey between two perspectives, one, the slightly more academic one, which is organizational culture, is how people think they manage operations and decision-making inside an organization. I think for a lot of people, that's a pretty simple and straightforward explanation.
But my personal preference is typically your culture can be defined by the worst behavior tolerated by management, which has always been a sort of personal favorite of mine. Because I think everybody who's listening to this podcast can probably remember personal moments of looking around and seeing what was actually tolerated at the companies that they worked at.
And that, by and large, is a definition or a manifestation of their corporate culture. So I often jockey between those two, depending on who I'm talking to here.
Ian: Yeah. And you know, these days, there's so much going on. People are under enormous amounts of stress with the pandemic. You know, I'm in Ontario as well. Hilton, you're in Canada. You know, we're on lockdowns. Kids are at home. People are trying to work from home while taking care of their kids. You know, flipping around on its head, the worst, the worst that they'll put up with. What about the positive side of that? What do you think companies should be doing right now to show that they understand what employees are going through? Because I know that seems like a trite question. But the reality is, as somebody who you know, manages a large number of staff, you don't always have the time to check in on people every day, get some employee engagement. And there tends to be a certain amount of cynicism when you do try to show empathy that you know there's some kind of hidden agenda there or, yeah, they're saying, we're not going to go back to the office, but I don't trust them. Like, how do you show genuine empathy to your employees, given how hard it is right now?
Hilton: Wow. How long are we recording this podcast for, because...
Ian: I don't know if you'll have a perfect answer. But I mean, for me, that's a 100 dollar question. What do you do? What do you say?
Hilton: Well, truth be truth be told, if I had a patch and easy to execute answer, I'd be in the south of France or on a yacht parked just off the coast of Bali, so I'm going to preface everything I say with.
There are remarkably smart individuals across the globe, leaders of big organizations big and small startups grappling with exactly this. A couple of observations, Ian, perhaps, and then I'll try to answer your question. So I think, firstly, a historical context, perhaps.
Previously when we all worked in offices, there were, I think, a lot of shortcuts that managers could take under the guise of culture. You know, you could be a pretty crappy manager, but if twice a week you rallied your team members and said, I'm going to pay for booze in a couple of beers at the local bar or, hey, I've brought in pizza for Friday, aren’t I a great guy. You could get away with those sort of half assed sort of contributions and say, I'm doing a great thing building a strong culture. Obviously the ability to do that now when your team is distributed to 50 or 60 locations across the province. That's infinitely harder.
So I think the first thing. Any manager of people needs to look at whether I need to turn what used to be implicit inside our organization. The things that we used to do to engender connection, to build compassion and connection and caring for our people, the things that we used to do accidentally.
And actually now do them deliberately, explicitly and with purpose. Now I mean for everybody listening to this podcast that's going to feel like, holy shit, that's a lot of work. But I think the truth of the matter is like any strategy, business strategy - people strategy.
You've got to sit and take a hard look and say, what explicit actions am I going to take here to do two things. One: to genuinely show my people I care about them. And two: genuinely and continually build the connection through teamwork. If you've only got two outcomes and two company’s goals, caring and connection would be the two that I would focus on.
And to your point. Sitting there and saying, what is caring and connection look like here? I had a great conversation recently with a friend who said he reached out to one of his colleagues who was under some pressure. And within 24 hours, he received a call from a child to say there was a perception that you'd overstepped the mark, that you'd asked questions in terms of how the family's situation was, the health of their parents, et cetera, et cetera. And a colleague on the other end of the phone had thought that was a step too far.
So to me that was a wonderful example of if you're not going to make explicit the rules of caring and connection inside your organization, it can be real easy for you not to go far enough or to go too far. And sadly, you can find yourself running into a wood chipper if you do it not enough or too far.
Ian: Yeah, it's a tricky one, because, you know, I remember when we were in the office over the years, you know, there's visual cues, right? You can see an employee that's obviously upset or in pain or dealing with something, you can take them aside. You can say, Hey, let's step into a boardroom, let's grab a coffee, let's see what's going on. If they're really having a tough time, you can say, why don't you go home? Take the rest of the day off, take just a week off. If you need to sort it out, let me know how I can help. We're missing those visual cues now. It's really hard. You know, if you've got a team meeting going with 100 people on the screen, you're not going to tell that Jim’s or whoever’s well-being is poor. And it's a challenge, but it's an important challenge to address because this kind of leads into the next question. I don't know if we're ever returning to the office.
Hilton: Well, that's the million dollar question for everyone, isn't it? And certainly if you're anyone who's got stocks and WeWork or any commercial real estate organization, I'm sure you're very keen for all of us to rush back into the office.
I think the truth of the matter is. There will be an office environment in the future. I think it's inevitable. The size, scale and scope of it, I think, is the biggest question for everybody.
Look, I'm a card carrying extrovert. I need the energy of other people around me. I need the ability to, after a meeting to say, we got ten minutes, let's go grab lunch or go grab a coffee. That's how I operate. Now there are colleagues of mine who if they never went back into the office, that would be too soon.
So I think the really astute organizations in the future will understand, how do we create an environment where we can get the best out of both sides of that equation? How do we allow our extroverts together? How do we give our introverts the freedom to operate from wherever they are and not force them to to come to a place of speaking to us and the commute and try to get home when it's snowing, as it is here in Toronto today and hate every minute of that experience and want to find a new job because they don't see the upside of why should I commute to an office?
So I think that's going to be a perpetual yin and yang that organizational leaders will deal with in the future. But Ian, again, I come back to explicit over implicit. What explicitly every leader should be looking at? Who do I need to work together with? What do they need to achieve? And what's the environment in which that can best happen? You and I both know in classic terms there are meetings that could have been an email. There are decisions that could have been a voicemail.
But we have some very broken organizational practices that we've been able to rely on in the past. How easy was it in the past to say, Hey, you people in the cube, I need six of you in the boardroom.
I mean, how effective was that for five people who would need deep and really deep work and you came by and said, Can I borrow you for half an hour? That's thinking that deep work that that wonderful deliverable that we're working on interrupted and now totally out the window.
So again, I think the toughest task for all of us is going to be a really good audit. I use that word deliberately. What are we trying to get done? What's the best composition of skills across our organization to do it? And what's the best working environment - digital, virtual, physical - that will enable it to happen? And start from there.
Ian: I mean, the tricky part there is it's kind of like I'll use a strange analogy here - going on the treadmill. I don't want to go on the treadmill. I'd rather just sit on my couch. But I know I should go on the treadmill and I feel better after I go on the treadmill. And I kind of have, you know, you may disagree and I may be wrong, but I feel like going to the office at least occasionally, once it's, you know, more safe to do so. It's kind of like going on a treadmill. Like it does play a role.
It is very, very difficult to maintain a workplace culture virtually. We do our best. I think one of the best things we do is we've maintained our weekly team meetings, which used to be in the office. Now they're virtually always have been. We never miss them. We try to keep them light and fun, and we try to highlight people's achievements in those and get some interaction with individuals. And we do a bunch of other things like there's different clubs and stuff, but it's not the same. And I think as much as people are like, I don't want to go into the office, you don't want to force them because once you force somebody to do something, how do you convince them that it's kind of like going on the treadmill? You'll feel better. Getting out of your house once a week will actually probably make you feel better.
Hilton: Well, I think, Ian, the context you provided is quite important, which is. What are the manifestations of our culture that we want to preserve? And I would agree. You know, the social aspect of your culture has for many organizations been a critical part of that cohesion. You know, I've had coffee with someone. I've had a meal with someone, had a beer with somebody. Some of the barriers break down and you just have an honest conversation with them as a human being. What ultimately happens is you've got a tighter connection with it.
So I would say everything that you've just outlined. No argument at all. There will be a requirement and a necessity to have those environments where there is physical interaction on whatever scale the local government will allow. My sort of pushback to you is that's one dimension of your culture.
The ultimate dimension of your culture is how much your people trust you or trust each other. And what are the actions and behaviors that foster that trust? At this moment. And there's some great work art, you know, this wonderful book called Remote Work Revolution, and I'll send you some details you can put into the liner notes of this podcast. But one of the core things of any great culture is the level of which people trust each other. Do I trust you to do the job I’ve assigned to you? Do I trust that you'll give me the deliverables I need so I can work with you on that project?
And trust is two levels. One is the sort of cognitive trust. Do I believe you have the capabilities, intelligence, expertise, competence to do the task? The second thing is emotional trust. Do I trust that you are a decent human being who cares about me and wants to look after me?
Now, some of that you can show in a physical environment. I would suggest that if you're really astute and on top of your people, there's ways that you can show and build that trust. Even digitally and virtually. Ultimately, if you've got that trust component and done, you've made a significant impact in building the kind of culture that will succeed.
Ian: Right. Yeah, I think that's a good point, and I think, you know, returning to work, if it ever happens and for what percentage of the workforce, is one of those things where I think there is a lot of angst, anxiety and to a certain degree, lack of trust. I think most people at most companies are waiting for the other shoe to drop and waiting for the management to say, OK, now you must return to work.
And part of the problem around that is policies, right?Like, it's very hard to write a policy that says, OK, these people never have to return to the office, but these people do because they’re client facing and they need them in the management meetings or whatever it happens to be.
Hilton: So some observations, Ian. It's interesting because, you know, twice in your question, you said you returned to work. I would respectfully suggest we all have been working for two and a half years. You know, maybe I've watched a bit more Netflix at lunch than I would have done if I'd been in the office. Yeah, but I haven't been sitting suntanning at home and drinking six litres of coffee a day, doing bugger all. So I think again, respectfully, some of this, some of the nomenclature doesn't help us as leaders, right? And actually does sort of put a pinprick in that trust bubble that we have with our people. Our people, you know, by and large, all the research would show - research from Microsoft, research from Gallup. The productivity hasn't fallen off a cliff.
You know, people have been. People have adapted. People have been ingenious in working out ways to do work in this new environment. And if anything, I think as leaders, we should take solace and comfort in that because ultimately what it shows is we've got some pretty damn ingenious people who found solutions in a pretty crappy time in human history. So the one consideration I would put to you as well. And again, you know, I'll look to great examples like Netflix.
Netflix has a really slim policy binder. And the reason for that in their mind is, if you hire the right people, people they call fully formed adults, you don't need to write a shitload of policies for that. You need to tell them we need to get X done. So I'm going to tell you what the destination or the objective is. But I'm not going to write a policy for how you should do it. I'm going to tell you what I need. I'm not going to tell you how to do it.
And if I may, I think organizations who take that orientation to policy or creating the work environment for the future, they're going to be a lot further ahead than doing the mental gymnastics of a policy for every scenario. That's a route to insanity, in my opinion.
Ian: Yeah, and that's a very good touch. You're right, I subconsciously said return to work when I might return to the office. And you know, we have been open with our employees. We said, you know, many of you will never return to the office again. You'll be remote for the rest of your career. And we're fine with that. But some of you will. Your job necessitates at least occasional office work because you might have to meet with a client or you might have to be in a management meeting. And so I think that it's that mixed message, right?
Hilton: Yeah. At the risk of trying to sound like a pithy T-shirt or coffee mug slogan, the notion of, you know, explicit rather than implicit. You know, you're a communications person yourself. You understand how critically important clarity is for everybody that you work with - clients, your partners, your employees. But I think if you're able to have a grown up conversation and explicit conversation with your people to say that the rationale for this decision is the following. That brings them into the conversation.
And if I may, back to the notion of trust, that's how trust is built. When some of these discussions are not mandates, but they're actually open conversations and you allow the space for your employees to say, are you really sure that's the most effective and efficient way to do it? You'll come to an answer that works for your company, that works for your clients, you know. And if I may, I've had, as I'm sure you have, numerous conversations in the last two years where clients have said, I'm actually glad that we don't have to have some big meeting with 40 people every time you come to town. I'm actually quite happy to have a 30 minute Zoom call. So I think that the other recognition is, what are we trying to achieve? What's the best way to achieve it? What's the best compliment to people and skills to get that done? Just have that conversation, and I'm sure the answer will fall more naturally out of that than out of a mandate from management.
Ian: So I mean, I think this leads to the last topic I really want to talk to you about is this topic of the great resignation. This has been a headline that people have been tossing around. You know what? I don't know how many people have actually quit because I'm not sure that people are really tracking that in a meaningful way. What they have is the percentage of employee retention has dropped and employee turnover has increased. People say they intend to change jobs or intend to quit their jobs. And then whether or not they actually do is a different question. You know, I guess my big two questions for you with this. A) What do you think the big contributors are to this feeling that there's this great resignation or let's say it's the great intention to quit? And then secondly. Do you think it's how real of a risk do you think this is for most employers?
Hilton: So a couple of a couple of things. The great resignation I've also heard as the great reflection or the great reorganization. And I think there's an element of truth in all three of those. I was recently talking to one of the senior folks in SAP, and I posed the same question to him. And that's an organization that tracks H.R. software for 90% of the Fortune 100.
And he said the great resignation is a fact in the US. Great resignation is a fact in the UK. Great resignation is not a fact if you live in the Philippines or Brazil or South Africa or Uruguay. So I think, you know, there's a degree of. The great resignation is probably all over your LinkedIn feed and my LinkedIn feed. And to some degree, that I think is a sort of halo component of that topic.
That being said, I think the truth behind all of it is that this environment has created an opportunity for more reflection from our people at every level in every organization. And a very real contemplation. Am I doing work that's meaningful? Am I working with people I like, doing something that's important. Am I able to do great work in this organization with this leadership at this time? These are all legitimate questions that get asked all the time. But I think in the current environment I have been asked with more frequency and with more deeper introspection from everybody. So where does that leave us as individuals or leaders of organizations?
I think in a classic place, which is, if the answer to those questions is, no, this is not a place where I can do meaningful work. This is not a place that I'm appreciated, understood or respected. This is not a place the company’s values align with my core values and I don’t value the people I'm working with. The bottom line is that you ask, why am I still here? So the issue for us individually and the issue for leaders collectively is, are you doing everything in your power to make the answers to those things explicitly clear for your people. Do I care for you? Yes. Are you being appreciated? Yes, let me show you how. Do I care about your growth? Yes. Here is how I'm going to help you grow. If you're able to do those things and I think you're going to reduce, not to remove but reduce that sense of, this is not the place for me. So that would be my overall answer. Every leader, Are you creating a place with purpose, with vision? And are you being explicitly clear how your people contribute to that?
And I would argue you should have been doing that all along. And it shouldn't have taken the great resignation for you to start to contemplate and consider those things.
Ian: Yeah. I mean, the cynic in me, which is, you know, at least 80% of me. The cynic in me says, absolutely. These are all things that we have always tried to do. We need to try to do it. As leaders, we all need to make sure that we're doing these things. How much of this great resignation is really or this, you know, intention or whatever we want to call it, how much of it is really driven by the fact that, you know, working from home is weakened a lot of the bonds that employers had with their employees and how much of this is driven by the fact that we've made it, you know, as a result of not having, you know, the office so often it's really easy to spend half your day surfing for another job or to even have a second job.
Hilton: Those of those are very fair considerations and absolutely, I think those do play into this, this overall sense.
I think, you know, the sort of couple of refinements. If you look at the US data, it is obviously knee deep and in great resignation, if you will. The data points to people, not necessarily knowledge workers like you and I might be, you know, people with a high speed internet connection, can literally work almost anywhere in the globe. But it's a lot of people in retail, a lot of people in QSR, a lot of people in the lower operational levels of hospitality. You know, people doing jobs where they were critically and often poorly treated.
You know, they weren't those bots, you know, they were coming in for substandard wages, having zero or very shitty health care, not really taken care of in the broadest sense. So very much, you know, a lot of the at least the initial data around who are the folks resigning, it’s folks at that level.
Does that mean that? You know, with the new realities of work from anywhere that a lot of people are finding more entrepreneurial pursuits and saying, you know what, I'm quite happy to go out and do what I do and I'll be tethered to a company.
I think there's certainly a percentage of the population that have that luxury. But again, you know, the great resignation is also something that is feasible for some work classes. But if you work in construction, you know, you're not having the ability to have a feasible conversation about working from anywhere.
So there will be aspects of the economy to which a great resignation will not be an issue. That doesn't mean, if I may, that that notion of making sure your people feel cared for and that your people feel connected to what your organization is trying to do should be any less important.
Ian: Oh, absolutely. And you make a good point, and I think it's a really strong point, which is that we've thought of this as a much broader issue. We've talked about it as a much broader issue and it is, to a certain degree, an issue.
But there are definitely some mitigating factors that we can't always control if we're talking about knowledge workers. And then if you're talking about other, you know, other industries. There's a lot of reasons why, you know, if you're working in retail or you're working in food service, you're not going to stick around because part of that is I don't know if I'm going to be locked down and laid off again. I better find another profession because even though this has been great to me for the last X years, I've now been laid off twice or have been laid off even more than twice in some cases. That's not a sustainable lifestyle for anybody.
Hilton: Absolutely. For somebody who has a profound belief in an organization's culture as a competitive advantage. That's in, healthy culture is something that an organization can actually win in the marketplace by having a decent, well-understood, understood cogent culture that aligns to their strategy and organization’s values.
I think regardless of the sector. This is the most important topic of maybe the next five years - how in these turbulent times when people have choices where people are facing deep fatigue or deep personal emotional pressure.
How do I create an organization where they feel they can do meaningful work with great people, be appreciated and have shared values? Because people can create that regardless of industry. I think it will be closer to success than those who think it's a triviality that doesn't need to be addressed.
Ian: Well, thanks so much, Hilton. I totally agree. I think it's hard to remember sometimes because we all we're all dealing with our own stresses, and it's hard to remember how important that part is, and it's hard to keep it at the top of your to do list when we're all running from Zoom call to Zoom call, to teams meetings, and to remember that we need to make time for that. Make it an organizational priority. And, like you said, make it explicit, not just not just implicit.
So thanks so much for your time today, Hilton. If people want to learn more about you online, where should they go?
Hilton: The best place is LinkedIn. I'm sure I'll be talking about the great resignation there. But yeah, LinkedIn is the best place to find me.
Ian: Perfect. Thanks so much, Hilton. Have a great day.
Hilton: Take good care, mate. Always a pleasure. Thank you.
Ian: Thanks for joining us for this week's episode of Dig In. If you want more information about Dig Insights or Upsiide, please check us out on LinkedIn or on our websites, diginsights.com or upsiide.com. If you have any ideas for future episodes or would like to be a guest, please feel free to direct message me through the LinkedIn app.